__Gandhi__
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Post by __Gandhi__ on Jun 3, 2017 0:09:05 GMT
Broken healthcare, broken social care, broken education system, broken housing market, broken welfare system, creaking or broken railways. World's 5th ( or 6th ?) biggest economy. The status quo needs to change. While I have reservations I prefer Corbyn and Labour. Just my 2p's worth
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Banter
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JakeRGaming
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Post by Banter on Jun 3, 2017 4:41:57 GMT
I also find it interesting that now that I've had a chance to look over the Conservative manifesto, that they are arrogant hypocrites.
Labour were laid into for their manifesto, which was accompanied by a costings document showing how much their policies would likely cost to implement and how they intended to source the finances for them.
The tory manifesto has no such document and is largely uncosted. It's almost as if they're hypocrites that don't believe their manifesto would stand up to scrutiny if it actually had more depth than a puddle in the Sahara.
Also, here's an extract from an article on Politics.co.uk: Food for thought, and I think that 'strong and stable' is somewhat less apt than 'weak and rickety'.
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Banter
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Post by Banter on Jun 3, 2017 4:58:57 GMT
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Post by cameronman1329 on Jun 4, 2017 10:56:12 GMT
My vote is pointless. My constituency has been stories for well over 50 years. Still voting Green as that's what I believe. As for between Labour and Conservatives, both have really shit policies.
Conservatives: Bad: don't want a hard Brexit; don't want privatisation of NHS; don't want Fox Hunting; don't want to free school meals taken away; don't support their environmental stance of just doing what everyone else does and not going beyond that. Good: economically they are going to reduce the debt (albeit at a sacrifice of QOL); prefer their security stance.
Labour: Bad: Increasing minimum wage to £10 an hour, this seems great in an ideal world, but my Dad runs a small dental practice, earns roughly £35-40k a year, not massive for someone who studied 5 years at uni, suffers from extreme stress for running a business, and has a great job. If £10 minimum wage comes in, he'll be looking for a new job, as he can't afford to pay his receptionist and cleaners that. He pays them about £8 (above minimum wage) so an extra £2 an hour over a year would work out about an extra £12k lost. So in the end, it's going to ruin small businesses, and a lot of people this wage is intending to help will be unemployed as small businesses can't afford it. Don't agree with their spending, firstly their policies aren't costed correctly, an extra 30 hours free childcare for 48 weeks for another 1.3million children. That costs £2.7bn? That's £1.33 per hour per child, doesn't add up. Then again this is the party that overspends and just puts us in debt. Good: their university policies on fees; environmental policies; their stance in EU migrants staying here after Brexit.
Summary: both are shit. One impacts my family in an extremely bad way should the minimum wage go up to £10 an hour. One reduces the quality of services and reduces the National Debt; one improves the quality of services and increases the National Debt. Labour's policies are just unrealistic. Many small business will close, some big firms may leave. In an ideal world great, but this is reality. Ideal result for me: Tories win but not by a majority so there has to be debate over issues, therefore we could get a reasonable stave from both parties. I'm more left wing socially, but economically Labour's policies don't work as they say.
Finally you probably wonder why I'm voting Green if Labour's economic approach doesn't work. Well, I'm a big environmentalist. I can live and happily accept living in worse financial conditions if it meant we took considerable action to a sustainable future.
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Tsupernami
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Post by Tsupernami on Jun 4, 2017 11:04:47 GMT
Just to point out £2 at full time which is 40 hours a week and for 52 weeks a year is £4160, not £12k.
And what about his receptionist? The £10 per hour minimum wage is a real living wage. What's the point in having a minimum wage if you can't survive on it?
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clone
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Post by clone on Jun 4, 2017 11:14:12 GMT
Just to point out £2 at full time which is 40 hours a week and for 52 weeks a year is £4160, not £12k. And what about his receptionist? The £10 per hour minimum wage is a real living wage. What's the point in having a minimum wage if you can't survive on it? Well, 3*4k=12k. As he said, cleaners, receptionists, that are multiple persons. He never said he disliked the idea of increasing it, he just stated his personal story of the impact of such an increase for the small business he is related to. And that impact is the closing of this small buisness and that the persons who should be helped by the increased minimum wage will just lose all their wage.
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Post by positivetension on Jun 4, 2017 11:19:11 GMT
Good: economically they are going to reduce the debt (albeit at a sacrifice of QOL); prefer their security stance. The UK debt has continued to increase under the conservatives and it seems likely that it will continue to rise. It'll probably rise at a lower rate but it'll still go up. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39897498
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Post by cameronman1329 on Jun 4, 2017 11:20:16 GMT
Just to point out £2 at full time which is 40 hours a week and for 52 weeks a year is £4160, not £12k. And what about his receptionist? The £10 per hour minimum wage is a real living wage. What's the point in having a minimum wage if you can't survive on it? Yes and 3 workers times by £4260 is a little over £12k. £8 an hour is £16k a year. Not much but you can live on it. While yes I'd love for everyone to have a great salary and comfortable lifestyle, that's not reality. Communism tried it and failed. Someone who studied 5 years at university, got a great degree, has the stress of running a small business whilst working as well, gets £35-40k a year. Factor in the 12k increase that goes down to £23-28k a year. For someone who has one of the hardest jobs to attain. If it happens he'll close the business and go work elsewhere for more money and far less stress. I'd love it for everyone to have comfort in their finances but that's not possible, my Dad doesn't even have that. The world is unfair, but we can't change that realistically. And fyi as stated my dad pays above minimum wage, but increasing the minimum wage to £10 is unaffordable not just for him but for many businesses out there.
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Post by cameronman1329 on Jun 4, 2017 11:21:33 GMT
Good: economically they are going to reduce the debt (albeit at a sacrifice of QOL); prefer their security stance. The UK debt has continued to increase under the conservatives and it seems likely that it will continue to rise. It'll probably rise at a lower rate but it'll still go up. The rate it has increased is far less, it is on a trend to start decreasing
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Banter
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JakeRGaming
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Post by Banter on Jun 4, 2017 11:27:32 GMT
Just to point out £2 at full time which is 40 hours a week and for 52 weeks a year is £4160, not £12k. And what about his receptionist? The £10 per hour minimum wage is a real living wage. What's the point in having a minimum wage if you can't survive on it? Yes and 3 workers times by £4260 is a little over £12k. £8 an hour is £16k a year. Not much but you can live on it. While yes I'd love for everyone to have a great salary and comfortable lifestyle, that's not reality. Communism tried it and failed. Someone who studied 5 years at university, got a great degree, has the stress of running a small business whilst working as well, gets £35-40k a year. Factor in the 12k increase that goes down to £23-28k a year. For someone who has one of the hardest jobs to attain. If it happens he'll close the business and go work elsewhere for more money and far less stress. I'd love it for everyone to have comfort in their finances but that's not possible, my Dad doesn't even have that. The world is unfair, but we can't change that realistically. And fyi as stated my dad pays above minimum wage, but increasing the minimum wage to £10 is unaffordable not just for him but for many businesses out there. No but they should be able to live off their wages. When NHS nurses are having to turn to food banks so they can both pay rent and afford to eat, something HAS to change. Not to mention the tories has missed every target they set for reducing the deficit. Sounds harsh, but no one has the right to have their business succeed. However they do have the right to a food and shelter, and it falls on employers to make sure their employees are paid enough.
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Banter
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Post by Banter on Jun 4, 2017 11:30:30 GMT
"Say Jeremy Corbyn had been the Home Secretary for six years, during which time he slashed some 20,000 police jobs taking us back to 1970s levels of per capita policing.
Let's say he also slashed the UK Border Agency budget so that over a million people per month were coming and going through UK airports without being properly checked.
Let's say by virtue of an extremely self-serving EU referendum non-campaign he managed to get into 10 Downing Street, where he kept up his agenda of cutting the UK security services and border agency.
Then there's a home-grown terrorist attack by a known Islamist fanatic in a city where Corbyn had cut the police budget by £157 million.
Let's say Jeremy Corbyn "lost" files on an internal pedophile ring.
Let's say he wanted to take the homes from the elderly.
Let's say he cut 30% of your disabled benefit.
Let's say he signed an arms deal with the (ISIS-funding) Saudis worth millions.
Let's say he wanted to take away your child's free school meal.
Let's say he forced NHS staff to use food banks.
Let's say he made so many cuts to the NHS that people are suffering waiting for ambulances and A&E doctors.
Let's say he went against doctors, nurses, teachers, fire fighters, the armed forces...
Let's say he took away funding for University for upcoming doctors and nurses.
Let's say after all these cuts there's still a deficit and he'd missed every target he'd set himself for reducing it.
What would you have to say about Jeremy Corbyn under these circumstances?
And why are they not saying those things about Theresa May and the Tories right now?"
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Post by cameronman1329 on Jun 4, 2017 11:39:18 GMT
Yes and 3 workers times by £4260 is a little over £12k. £8 an hour is £16k a year. Not much but you can live on it. While yes I'd love for everyone to have a great salary and comfortable lifestyle, that's not reality. Communism tried it and failed. Someone who studied 5 years at university, got a great degree, has the stress of running a small business whilst working as well, gets £35-40k a year. Factor in the 12k increase that goes down to £23-28k a year. For someone who has one of the hardest jobs to attain. If it happens he'll close the business and go work elsewhere for more money and far less stress. I'd love it for everyone to have comfort in their finances but that's not possible, my Dad doesn't even have that. The world is unfair, but we can't change that realistically. And fyi as stated my dad pays above minimum wage, but increasing the minimum wage to £10 is unaffordable not just for him but for many businesses out there. No but they should be able to live off their wages. When NHS nurses are having to turn to food banks so they can both pay rent and afford to eat, something HAS to change. Not to mention the tories has missed every target they set for reducing the deficit. Sounds harsh, but no one has the right to have their business succeed. However they do have the right to a food and shelter, and it falls on employers to make sure their employees are paid enough. I agree but there is a lot of issues both neglect to notice. Firstly I don't know much about this nurse but she should earn enough to not need Food Banks, there are probably spending habits she could change, such as the reports of holiday pictures. But that's irrelevant. What is important is the structure of the NHS. The NHS is poorly funded yes, but all these policies to increase wage is all on "doctors" as in those in hospitals and GPs. The Dental side of the NHS is terrible. The cut the worker gets from an NHS patient is terrible, and the criteria and work needed is awful too. Having t have a certain amount of NHS patients per month or you won't get paid, all the forms that need submitting, and here is a story: for my Dad he submitted the forms for the last quarter in January. Because one of his staff was off ill he was behind on paperwork by the slightest as the temp replacements weren't doing it all. They held back NHS payment up until May so we barely scraped by for 3 months thanks to taking out loans. The state of the NHS from the dental side is a mess, not helped by public perception. No one is willing to pay much for dental care. While inflation has risen, the price of Dental care hasn't, because people aren't willing to pay. So their wages haven't. Yet people neglect the fact you can get cancer from bad oral care, you can get serious health risks related to cardiac and life expectancy. Yet neither party has shown any signs of changing this. So don't even start on the NHS, you think hospitals and doctors have it bad, try Dentistry.
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Banter
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JakeRGaming
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Post by Banter on Jun 4, 2017 11:54:22 GMT
No but they should be able to live off their wages. When NHS nurses are having to turn to food banks so they can both pay rent and afford to eat, something HAS to change. Not to mention the tories has missed every target they set for reducing the deficit. Sounds harsh, but no one has the right to have their business succeed. However they do have the right to a food and shelter, and it falls on employers to make sure their employees are paid enough. I agree but there is a lot of issues both neglect to notice. Firstly I don't know much about this nurse but she should earn enough to not need Food Banks, there are probably spending habits she could change, such as the reports of holiday pictures. But that's irrelevant. What is important is the structure of the NHS. The NHS is poorly funded yes, but all these policies to increase wage is all on "doctors" as in those in hospitals and GPs. The Dental side of the NHS is terrible. The cut the worker gets from an NHS patient is terrible, and the criteria and work needed is awful too. Having t have a certain amount of NHS patients per month or you won't get paid, all the forms that need submitting, and here is a story: for my Dad he submitted the forms for the last quarter in January. Because one of his staff was off ill he was behind on paperwork by the slightest as the temp replacements weren't doing it all. They held back NHS payment up until May so we barely scraped by for 3 months thanks to taking out loans. The state of the NHS from the dental side is a mess, not helped by public perception. No one is willing to pay much for dental care. While inflation has risen, the price of Dental care hasn't, because people aren't willing to pay. So their wages haven't. Yet people neglect the fact you can get cancer from bad oral care, you can get serious health risks related to cardiac and life expectancy. Yet neither party has shown any signs of changing this. So don't even start on the NHS, you think hospitals and doctors have it bad, try Dentistry. Okay, lets break this down point-by-point To be honest as someone whose family clearly has connections to the NHS this is astoundingly ignorant. This is happening enmasse to the point where the amount of people studying to become nurses and doctors is falling, because they simply aren't being paid enough. Quite simply, they cannot afford food, much less holidays. Increases to minimum wage will not affect the vast majority of doctors. It will help nurses and trainees who can barely afford to eat and are massively overworked. I'm afraid this is all part and parcel of owning your own business. No business has the right not to fail, and it is up to the owner to consider the risks before starting up. Sounds harsh, but that's reality for you. By the sounds of it you father is a smart man and is well qualified. If he has chosen not to take a higher paying job for a larger firm, on his head be it. If he has to find work with another business, it's not the end of the world. As for payments being held back, thank the tories. They've been in power for the past seven years and failed to meet their own economic targets even with all of their cuts, not Labour. People are ignorant to stuff, and there's not much you can do about it. Such is life. I'm afraid at the end of the day dentists are less important than A&E workers, intensive care nurses and surgeons. That's just how it is.
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Post by cameronman1329 on Jun 4, 2017 11:58:44 GMT
I understand all your points. The same argument you use can be used against you. Why do you have the right to earn £10 an hour when you have no qualifications? Sounds harsh but there is no right to it. I'm all for increasing the minimum wage but £10 an hour is very extreme. At the end of the day my Dad could get another job, something he's been thinking of for a while due to stress of running a business affecting his health, those employed by him, who are on £8 an hour (above minimum wage by a fair bit) will be looking for a new job, and so will thousands of others working at small businesses.
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Post by cameronman1329 on Jun 4, 2017 12:02:44 GMT
Thought I'd share this: Im not a Tory supporter, I'm also not a Labour supporter. But it seems to be Labour supporters neglect a lot of key facts. As I said ideally a Conservative win with a hung parliament would be best for me.
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