JudoJoker
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Registered on: February 2015
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Post by JudoJoker on Apr 12, 2015 1:51:14 GMT
For anyone unaware of who this guy is, he was the host a series called "To Catch a Predator" which they lured pedophiles into coming to a house where they set up and they would interview them and police would arrest them outside. Chris Hansen is one of the most epic TV hosts ever... the responses and justifications these losers come up with are absolutely hilarious...
He's back and he's hoping to start a spinoff of "To Catch A Predator"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 16:00:10 GMT
JudoJoker That podcast I was talking about yesterday managed to get an half hour Q&A session with Chris Hansen. He talks about some very interesting stories not shown on the show as well as some behind the scenes details. Very entertaining and totally worth a watch.
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Post by Renegade1911 on May 9, 2015 20:09:04 GMT
JudoJoker I think that's fucked up, and calling pedofiles losers is uncalled for. Their behavior can be criminal and extremely dangerous to society, yes, but even then, you have to realise that they are partially a victim too. It's something they're born with and have no choice in, and some of them are not strong enough to supress their urges. You wouldn't call homosexual a loser, even though both of these abnormalities are along the same lines. I know you're just trying to have a bit of fun. Reading that comment just irked me a little and I felt I needed to say this.
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Duchartre
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Posts: 461
Registered on: March 2015
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Post by Duchartre on May 9, 2015 22:43:24 GMT
JudoJoker I think that's fucked up, and calling pedofiles losers is uncalled for. Their behavior can be criminal and extremely dangerous to society, yes, but even then, you have to realise that they are partially a victim too. It's something they're born with and have no choice in, and some of them are not strong enough to supress their urges. You wouldn't call homosexual a loser, even though both of these abnormalities are along the same lines. I know you're just trying to have a bit of fun. Reading that comment just irked me a little and I felt I needed to say this. Whoa there! I partially agree with your sentiment - paedophiles can't help being paedophiles - but they can choose not to molest children. I take issue with the comparison of paedophilia to homosexuality. This is a harmful line of thinking that isn't just offensive - but has real consequences for real people. For example in Russia if you pay attention to the homophobic rhetoric, they constantly refer to gay people being child molesters. They are not the same, they are not similar. I don't imagine you did this intentionally or anything, and I'm not mad at you, it's just important that people recognise when some of the world's backward narratives start to creep into their language and ideas.
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Post by Renegade1911 on May 9, 2015 23:56:50 GMT
JudoJoker I think that's fucked up, and calling pedofiles losers is uncalled for. Their behavior can be criminal and extremely dangerous to society, yes, but even then, you have to realise that they are partially a victim too. It's something they're born with and have no choice in, and some of them are not strong enough to supress their urges. You wouldn't call homosexual a loser, even though both of these abnormalities are along the same lines. I know you're just trying to have a bit of fun. Reading that comment just irked me a little and I felt I needed to say this. Whoa there! I partially agree with your sentiment - paedophiles can't help being paedophiles - but they can choose not to molest children. I take issue with the comparison of paedophilia to homosexuality. This is a harmful line of thinking that isn't just offensive - but has real consequences for real people. For example in Russia if you pay attention to the homophobic rhetoric, they constantly refer to gay people being child molesters. They are not the same, they are not similar. I don't imagine you did this intentionally or anything, and I'm not mad at you, it's just important that people recognise when some of the world's backward narratives start to creep into their language and ideas. They are similar in one thing. They were born with a sexual abnormality (I hesitate to say deviation, just cuz of the implied negativity that word can carry) they have no say in. One is criminal and dangerous, one is completely fine. Of course pedophiles can choose to not molest kids, some of them are just not strong enough to do so. I doubt they consciously want to do evil, they just can't help it.
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Duchartre
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Posts: 461
Registered on: March 2015
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Post by Duchartre on May 10, 2015 0:53:39 GMT
Whoa there! I partially agree with your sentiment - paedophiles can't help being paedophiles - but they can choose not to molest children. I take issue with the comparison of paedophilia to homosexuality. This is a harmful line of thinking that isn't just offensive - but has real consequences for real people. For example in Russia if you pay attention to the homophobic rhetoric, they constantly refer to gay people being child molesters. They are not the same, they are not similar. I don't imagine you did this intentionally or anything, and I'm not mad at you, it's just important that people recognise when some of the world's backward narratives start to creep into their language and ideas. They are similar in one thing. They were born with a sexual abnormality (I hesitate to say deviation, just cuz of the implied negativity that word can carry) they have no say in. One is criminal and dangerous, one is completely fine. Of course pedophiles can choose to not molest kids, some of them are just not strong enough to do so. I doubt they consciously want to do evil, they just can't help it. You're not helping. If that's the only level you are comparing on then you could just have easily gone to a whole range of 'sexual preferences' that aren't considered 'normal'. I'm not saying it's you're fault, but you linked homosexuality and pedophilia where there was no need. It was kind of crass in my opinion, and given that I just gave you the context, I would have expected you to be able to see this in hindsight. You'd rather use 'abnormality' than 'deviancy' to avoid negative connotations? The comparisons you are drawing go far beyond implications and inferences - they have played and continue to a play key role in anti-LGBTQ prejudice, and I'm sure you already know a bit about the severity of the consequences these people face. "You wouldn't call homosexual a loser, even though both of these abnormalities are along the same lines." - you I'm sure you had the best of intentions, but that (^) is not a smart or sensitive thing to say
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 1:37:02 GMT
Renegade1911All paedophiles that act on their urges to take advantage of, traumatize, or otherwise harm children are losers. I cannot think of a single scenario in which a fully grown adult can be excused from physically or sexually assaulting children because they were too weak willed to stop themselves; there are so many deterrents and prevention systems at any persons disposal to deal with these internal issues that any man or woman couldn't have gone through with such a crime without knowingly passing up these lifelines. Between hotlines, public education as a youth, therapy and even emergency services, there are a thousand ways and then some that a to be sex offender can counter the urges they face, and yet next to none of the people that go through with the crime actually capitalize on these things. They willingly pass them up in order to indulge their own fantasies, and regardless of how intense these urges are, that is unacceptable. These people aren't deserving of a victim status and shouldn't be treated as anything other than a criminal and a loser. DuchartreSimply put; Renegade is right. Both homosexuality and paedophilia are deviations from the sexual norm that are entirely out of any persons control. Regardless of the morality of either, that is the truth and to make it unmentionable in the name of political correctness seems ridiculous. I think everyone is on the same page in saying homosexuality is not harmful due to the ability for both parties to consent, but paedophilia is not because of the younger party being unable to consent; that differences allows one to say A) is all right and legal while B) is neither. Once we have that well established, the other similarities the two groups have with one another should not be taken to suggest their similarity on a legal or moral level because that is not the point being argued.
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Duchartre
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Post by Duchartre on May 10, 2015 2:02:25 GMT
DuchartreSimply put; Renegade is right. Both homosexuality and paedophilia are deviations from the sexual norm that are entirely out of any persons control. Regardless of the morality of either, that is the truth and to make it unmentionable in the name of political correctness seems ridiculous. I think everyone is on the same page in saying homosexuality is not harmful due to the ability for both parties to consent, but paedophilia is not because of the younger party being unable to consent; that differences allows one to say A) is all right and legal while B) is neither. Once we have that well established, the other similarities the two groups have with one another should not be taken to suggest their similarity on a legal or moral level because that is not the point being argued. I never said renegade was 'wrong'. They are both deviations just like the thousands of other ways a person can be different from the sexual norm. Of all of those ways which did he choose to compare though? I never said it was unmentionable - I said that it was crass and insensitive. This has nothing to do with 'political correctness' - he is taking part in and perpetuating a stereotype that leads to people like me getting killed daily. I never blamed him, I just hinted that perhaps he should think a little more carefully. I gave him the context, he surely has the mental faculties. I only hoped that perhaps he (and others reading) would think about it, and make a conscious effort not to associate the two. He didn't choose to compare them on purpose - the comparison leapt to his brain, because it is a narrative that gets reinforced every day in comments like this. I'm not trying to point blame or cause drama, it's just dispiriting and saddening to see these happen. Try to empathise with me. I tried to do my bit to change that in the least shouty/offensive way possible. Next time please compare paedophiles to people who like feet or something idk there are plenty of other choices that don't come with a history of bigotry and a present of murder.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 3:17:41 GMT
DuchartreSimply put; Renegade is right. Both homosexuality and paedophilia are deviations from the sexual norm that are entirely out of any persons control. Regardless of the morality of either, that is the truth and to make it unmentionable in the name of political correctness seems ridiculous. I think everyone is on the same page in saying homosexuality is not harmful due to the ability for both parties to consent, but paedophilia is not because of the younger party being unable to consent; that differences allows one to say A) is all right and legal while B) is neither. Once we have that well established, the other similarities the two groups have with one another should not be taken to suggest their similarity on a legal or moral level because that is not the point being argued. I never said renegade was 'wrong'. They are both deviations just like the thousands of other ways a person can be different from the sexual norm. Of all of those ways which did he choose to compare though? I never said it was unmentionable - I said that it was crass and insensitive. This has nothing to do with 'political correctness' - he is taking part in and perpetuating a stereotype that leads to people like me getting killed daily. I never blamed him, I just hinted that perhaps he should think a little more carefully. I gave him the context, he surely has the mental faculties. I only hoped that perhaps he (and others reading) would think about it, and make a conscious effort not to associate the two. He didn't choose to compare them on purpose - the comparison leapt to his brain, because it is a narrative that gets reinforced every day in comments like this. I'm not trying to point blame or cause drama, it's just dispiriting and saddening to see these happen. Try to empathise with me. I tried to do my bit to change that in the least shouty/offensive way possible. Next time please compare paedophiles to people who like feet or something idk there are plenty of other choices that don't come with a history of bigotry and a present of murder. I have to ask; why is it insensitive to compare homosexuality to paedophilia in the way he or I did? If I were to say something such as "homosexuality and paedophilia are two peas in a pod and should be equally shamed by the public," then sure, that is clearly insensitive. What both he and I did say, however, seems to clearly state in what regard they are similar, and clearly distance those similarities from the clear moral and legal differences that exist. There is no slanderous attempt at relating those two groups of orientations in every way possible from what I could gather, so I don't see how it could be considered insensitive. As far as choosing a fetish to compare to what is widely considered a sexual orientation: it just seems the extremity of the two are too far mismatched. You're right in saying no major community of people have been discriminated against for mere fetishes whilst gays do have that history, but that doesn't give reason to make homosexuality a no go zone in this, or any, conversation. You said it yourself early in your post, that homosexuality was never unmentionable, so I don't see an issue with choosing that as a comparison. In fact, I think it is an especially good example since it has a community that is prevalent and known by the public like no other sexual deviation. The relevance of homosexuality makes it much more of tangible comparison than obscure fetishes, so the similarities and differences can be much more clearly established.
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Post by Renegade1911 on May 10, 2015 10:05:20 GMT
DuchartreSimply put; Renegade is right. Both homosexuality and paedophilia are deviations from the sexual norm that are entirely out of any persons control. Regardless of the morality of either, that is the truth and to make it unmentionable in the name of political correctness seems ridiculous. I think everyone is on the same page in saying homosexuality is not harmful due to the ability for both parties to consent, but paedophilia is not because of the younger party being unable to consent; that differences allows one to say A) is all right and legal while B) is neither. Once we have that well established, the other similarities the two groups have with one another should not be taken to suggest their similarity on a legal or moral level because that is not the point being argued. I never said renegade was 'wrong'. They are both deviations just like the thousands of other ways a person can be different from the sexual norm. Of all of those ways which did he choose to compare though? I never said it was unmentionable - I said that it was crass and insensitive. This has nothing to do with 'political correctness' - he is taking part in and perpetuating a stereotype that leads to people like me getting killed daily. I never blamed him, I just hinted that perhaps he should think a little more carefully. I gave him the context, he surely has the mental faculties. I only hoped that perhaps he (and others reading) would think about it, and make a conscious effort not to associate the two. He didn't choose to compare them on purpose - the comparison leapt to his brain, because it is a narrative that gets reinforced every day in comments like this. I'm not trying to point blame or cause drama, it's just dispiriting and saddening to see these happen. Try to empathise with me. I tried to do my bit to change that in the least shouty/offensive way possible. Next time please compare paedophiles to people who like feet or something idk there are plenty of other choices that don't come with a history of bigotry and a present of murder. I am not perpetuating anything. I simply stated that pedophiles are not like most people, and they have no say in it, much like homosexuals. The nature of these two abnormalities are fundamentally different, I recognise that. I am in no way bashing homosexuality. I am only pointing out that it shares a trait with pedophilia, that trait being it is not "normal". In my original post, I was calling out for more understanding and empathy. Now you're twisting my words into something they're not. I did choose homosexuality on purpose. Why? It's the most widely known phenomenon and there is really nothing wrong with it (unlike say necrophilia), so it makes for a good contrast. I am in no way implying that homosexuals are child molesters. What I'm saying is, even the worst criminals (acting pedophiles included) needs to be understood, not ridiculed. What the show is doing (I think, I haven't seen it, the video you posted is unavailible) is ridiculing someone who needs help, which is not a good thing in my opinion.
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Duchartre
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Registered on: March 2015
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Post by Duchartre on May 10, 2015 16:28:30 GMT
I'm not someone who gets off on being offended by things, or chastising people for making mistakes. That's not what I'm trying to do here. This isn't just me trying to uphold political correctness or anything like that. This isn't about overt homophobia or anything like that, because what you said is supportive of LGBT issues. I was just trying to point out that some insidious covert homophobic positions/rhetoric has made it way into your own language. Please note I never meant to make you feel bad about this - only point it out that you might see it yourself. Because from your tone and what you said, you all seem like nice people who have progressive views about LGBT people and all, and care about people not being discriminated against. You may not be familiar with these ideas, but language and narratives are very important tools in the oppression of all different kinds of people (and have been in history). You can look to the way nazis referred to Jews, gypsies and lgbt people. And also today all across the world, women, gays ethnic minorities etc. suffer at the hands of these harmful narratives - they reinforce negative stereotypes in the most sneaky ways possible; through the everyday speech of normal (and often well-intentioned) people. This is kind of what I've seen happen here. There was nothing incorrect about your comparison. It was logically valid, I appreciated the points of view you were trying to put across, both about trying to help folks that have problems, and your support for gays. But you unintentionally made a link between paedophilia and homosexuality, which I'm sure you know is a theme in the oppression (and even genocide) of lgbt people. Please note I'm not at all mad, it's just saddening to see that even in a caring and thoughtful comment, there was carried this poisonous undercurrent that serves to reinforce the very thing you are speaking out against. I'll give a quick example. If I were defending and seeking promote understanding of folks who 'make their living' outside of societal norms, and have problems related to this - namely thieves, then I would look to find a group who also live outside societal norms to compare the thieves to. I could choose perhaps: hermits, dancers, hunter/trappers, or many other groups. If I decided to compare thieves to roma/travelling people however, we would have a problem. Although this is a fair and logical comparison, I have accidentally invoked harmful negative stereotypes that play a large part in contributing to seriously bad consequences for Roma. It's ok to make such a mistake, but hopefully if it's pointed out to you, you can try to not make the same or similar mistakes again, and also point out to other people when they do. My goal isn't to divide and say 'I'm so politically correct, you're doing it wrong, I'm all pious and holier than thou'. I'd just like the world to be a more thoughtful, sensitive and accepting place for myself and everyone - just as I'm sure you all would. And it starts with challenging the significant underlying problems of stereotypes/roles/narratives in language. I don't want to argue. I'm not offended. I'm just trying to help
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 20:20:03 GMT
I'm not someone who gets off on being offended by things, or chastising people for making mistakes. That's not what I'm trying to do here. This isn't just me trying to uphold political correctness or anything like that. This isn't about overt homophobia or anything like that, because what you said is supportive of LGBT issues. I was just trying to point out that some insidious covert homophobic positions/rhetoric has made it way into your own language. Please note I never meant to make you feel bad about this - only point it out that you might see it yourself. Because from your tone and what you said, you all seem like nice people who have progressive views about LGBT people and all, and care about people not being discriminated against. You may not be familiar with these ideas, but language and narratives are very important tools in the oppression of all different kinds of people (and have been in history). You can look to the way nazis referred to Jews, gypsies and lgbt people. And also today all across the world, women, gays ethnic minorities etc. suffer at the hands of these harmful narratives - they reinforce negative stereotypes in the most sneaky ways possible; through the everyday speech of normal (and often well-intentioned) people. This is kind of what I've seen happen here. There was nothing incorrect about your comparison. It was logically valid, I appreciated the points of view you were trying to put across, both about trying to help folks that have problems, and your support for gays. But you unintentionally made a link between paedophilia and homosexuality, which I'm sure you know is a theme in the oppression (and even genocide) of lgbt people. Please note I'm not at all mad, it's just saddening to see that even in a caring and thoughtful comment, there was carried this poisonous undercurrent that serves to reinforce the very thing you are speaking out against. I'll give a quick example. If I were defending and seeking promote understanding of folks who 'make their living' outside of societal norms, and have problems related to this - namely thieves, then I would look to find a group who also live outside societal norms to compare the thieves to. I could choose perhaps: hermits, dancers, hunter/trappers, or many other groups. If I decided to compare thieves to roma/travelling people however, we would have a problem. Although this is a fair and logical comparison, I have accidentally invoked harmful negative stereotypes that play a large part in contributing to seriously bad consequences for Roma. It's ok to make such a mistake, but hopefully if it's pointed out to you, you can try to not make the same or similar mistakes again, and also point out to other people when they do. My goal isn't to divide and say 'I'm so politically correct, you're doing it wrong, I'm all pious and holier than thou'. I'd just like the world to be a more thoughtful, sensitive and accepting place for myself and everyone - just as I'm sure you all would. And it starts with challenging the significant underlying problems of stereotypes/roles/narratives in language. I don't want to argue. I'm not offended. I'm just trying to help :) That comparison you made with thieves to travellers is not harmful to any group involved. So long as the party being spoken to can think critically, they will be able to distinguish legal and moral differences from other aspects in which both groups are similar. Linking parties to one another on a factual basis is not harmful to presenting an accurate image of either party under any circumstance so long as all information is given to the audience. If anything, doing so more clearly states the parameters in which a certain group often lies. With the thieves to travellers comparison, you've successfully described that they both earn a living in an unconventional means whilst having drastically different methods for making such a living. Very similarly, the comparison of homosexuals to paedophiles accurately portrays the fact that both groups have a sexual deviance from the bulk of society while clearly defining the difference in preference the parties have. The deviances the parties have are completely separate, and to link them to one another is inaccurate extrapolation based off of prejudices. There is nothing wrong with the purely factual analysis given, only the possible misinformation people can tack on to it. That misinformation is out of my control and is clearly distinct from what I said, so I have no obligation to censor or reword my statements in order to prevent the possibility of anyone thinking such things. There is no mistake in what I said; it is an opinion backed by facts that holds its weight based on merit. What I said was clear and the underlying stereotypes you insist exist are purely an external interpretation that takes what I said out of its literal context. I can appreciate what you're saying, and I get that it is a sensitive subject for lots of people, but I stick by what I said since there is no reason for people to be offended by it.
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Post by KoBo_043 on May 27, 2015 10:42:45 GMT
Renegade1911: I do get your point, but I also have to agree with Duchartre. This however isn't about comparing homo's and pedo's, it's about active sexual predators being wrong. The guys who get 'trapped' by Chris Hansen (don't know him or his show, but that doesn't matter) clearly don't have the ability to control there urges and should be punished (as severely as possible imo) for what they did/do or intend to do. You can't punish someone for thinking about doing something -or i'd be doing some serious time for murdering several people -, but in that case they should clearly seek help before it's too late. Pedo's destroy lives in a way that's even worse then killing someone. @alfislegend: "gay people do it with mutual consent, and young ones don't" Have to disagree on that because there are a lot of 13/14/15 year old who DO have the ability to consent with something. And older people can be very pursuasive for kids that age. Or they buy them stuff to pursuade them. In The Netherlands there was even sort of a 'club' (don't know the right English word for it) which even had a political agenda and tried to get in the government, which thought it should be legal to have sex at 12 years because they could consent. And right now in Belgium the government is thinking about making it legal for 14 y/o which is too young imo too. Thank God (Allah, Buhda, Jahweh, Broughy) they got banned! I understand all your points, but pedophiles are wrong/mentally ill and should seek help and as soon as they act to their urges (from looking at childporn to actually doing it) the should be punished.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 0:12:36 GMT
@alfislegend: "gay people do it with mutual consent, and young ones don't" Have to disagree on that because there are a lot of 13/14/15 year old who DO have the ability to consent with something. And older people can be very pursuasive for kids that age. Or they buy them stuff to pursuade them. In The Netherlands there was even sort of a 'club' (don't know the right English word for it) which even had a political agenda and tried to get in the government, which thought it should be legal to have sex at 12 years because they could consent. And right now in Belgium the government is thinking about making it legal for 14 y/o which is too young imo too. Thank God (Allah, Buhda, Jahweh, Broughy) they got banned! I understand all your points, but pedophiles are wrong/mentally ill and should seek help and as soon as they act to their urges (from looking at childporn to actually doing it) the should be punished. I'm not questioning the decision making abilities of any minors, I'm stating that regardless of their mental state they do not have the ability to legally consent to sexual acts. There's actually a legal term for it: age of consent. The reason the age of consent laws are in place in hundreds of countries is to prevent mentally and sexually undeveloped youth from being taken advantage of, but because it is required by most western nations to treat all people equal under the law, the requirement was made based off of age rather than maturity. That means that regardless of the attitude and knowledge the minor has about sexual acts, it is illegal to engage in them and therefore the adult perpetrator is a criminal. If people believe age of consent laws should be reformed to include 13/14/15 year old girls deemed mature enough by whatever arbitrary force put in place, I say take that to their government. There is next to no chance of anything changing, however, because most people value the idea that all are equal under the eyes of the law far too much. Also: Pedo's destroy lives in a way that's even worse then killing someone. What?
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Post by KoBo_043 on May 28, 2015 7:34:03 GMT
Also: Pedo's destroy lives in a way that's even worse then killing someone. What? If someone gets killed, it's over and done. If a kid gets molested, they're scarred for life which ultimately could lead to severe psychological issues (like PTS), or anxiety attacks, or anti-social behaviour because they don't trust anyone anymore. It's something they'll have to carry with them the rest of their life. I'm not a psychologist, but -without getting into too much detail- this subject is very close to me, so I do know what I'm talking about.
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