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Post by Jontti500 on Aug 10, 2014 1:44:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 8:55:29 GMT
I just did a few hours of research about the Finnish and their role in the second world war, and I never knew they held such a unique role in the battles on the Eastern front. While I can't condone them siding with Nazi Germany, it is interesting to know some facts about how well they fought against the Soviet Union. For example, the Finnish were one of the few European nations to use guerrilla war tactics, and it proved extremely successful considering the final numbers of the Winter War had the Russian losses numbered at over four times as high as that of the Finns. While the attack on Finland was extremely taxing on both sides, it was not completely unprovoked, however; to start, the Finns revolted and declared independence from the USSR back in 1917. That was not enough to justify the Soviet's attempts to once again secure Finland, but a combination of the then national border's close proximity to Leningrad and the tensions created from back and forth attacks such as the Aunus Expedition justified to the Russians the need to retake Finland. This of course failed, but it wasn't a complete waste on their part seeing as to this day Karelia is a part of Russian territory, even being kept through the fall of the USSR.
A little piece of trivia I found very interesting while searching up the Winter War: Moscow and Helsinki were two of the three European Capitals to never be occupied by enemy forces in the war, the third being London. It's amazing to think that Finland and USSR fought directly, and yet ended up with no decisive victory where one nation captured the capital of the other.
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Post by Jontti500 on Aug 10, 2014 11:05:01 GMT
Lenin gave Finland their independance, Stalin didn't like that and he attacked Finland a country that had declared itself neutral in the war.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 11:59:26 GMT
Lenin gave Finland their independance, Stalin didn't like that and he attacked Finland a country that had declared itself neutral in the war. I know, but a combination of rapidly reforming government in the USSR and highly valued land in Sweden led to the winter war happening. Why do you think Germany attacked Norway a year later? For the iron ore mine located in the neighboring Sweden. Even if these weren't reasons enough, the two countries had a very tense relationship, again with the attacks and land disputes between locations like Karelia.
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Post by Jontti500 on Aug 10, 2014 18:37:16 GMT
Hitler attacked Norway out of strategic reasons he wanted the whole coastline to be able to mount the plane bombings over the UK. Even though Sweden had declared themselves "neutral" on paper they were huge supporters of the nazis. Most of Swedens industries where producing supplies for the nazis during the war. So Fuck the Svedes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 21:20:07 GMT
Isn't it hypocritical to insult Sweden for supplying the Nazis, but excuse the Finns for fighting alongside them? I know they fought only in retaliation to the USSR's attempts at gaining land, but that doesn't change the fact that the Finnish government actively sided with Nazis. I wouldn't even be bothered if what led to the alliance was a German takeover of Finland, but what happened instead was a free, democratic nation that was relatively safe from Nazi influence actively sided with Germany instead of siding with other nations that also condemned the USSR's actions, such as the U.S.A. or the U.K.
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Post by Jontti500 on Aug 11, 2014 17:12:09 GMT
There were some collaboration thats true, the uk was in war with hitler so they were trapped on their Island, usa did not participate in the european war until the very end and they had their hands full with the japps. Sadly enough the germans were the only ones they could turn to. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Altough there was an agreement the germans did not help much, they provided some resurses but hardly eny manpower.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 22:40:07 GMT
Sure, Finland only sided with Germany to defend against the Soviets, but they gave up their status as the victims of war when they allowed Nazi movement through their nation in preparation for Operation Barbarossa. By the time Op. Barbarossa was in preparation by Germany and their belligerents, the Soviets and the Finns had been at peace for nearly 16 months. For the Finns to support Germany and allow them use of Finnish land was a direct sign of hostility that made them co-belligerents in Soviet eyes. That's why the Great Patriotic War was started; Finns directly supported the German attack of the USSR, so the USSR retaliated with air raids over Finland.
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Post by Jontti500 on Aug 13, 2014 9:05:46 GMT
I guess there was alot of hostility against the ussr the whole country thirsted for revenge, it was a stupid decission, but Finland kept what mattered the most freedom.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 9:38:59 GMT
Machiavellianism does not excuse an act of aggression that threatens the very core of another nation, i.e.; Finland's breach of the Moscow Treaty was immoral, and no matter how much it is justified by an end the means were problematic, ending with Finland being dragged back into the war along the eastern front.
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Post by Jontti500 on Aug 13, 2014 11:02:18 GMT
So you dont think that USSR are to be blamed? They where the aggressors that started the whole thing. Finland didn't want war, but USSR attacked them anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 11:15:49 GMT
I think both parties are at fault, but if I had to side with one, it'd be the USSR. They were attacked by the Finnish first and were villainized for upping the ante by showing the Finns how large scale war can be. Call me redpilled if you want, but the Finns weren't the victims they appear to be by today's coverage of the historic battles.
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Post by Jontti500 on Aug 13, 2014 12:57:35 GMT
The Russians attacked Finland, what would the finns have to gain from attacking USSR? Ler me tell u what started the war. Stalins troups snook over the boarder and fired against their homeland to lay the blame on the finns.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 14:39:47 GMT
I've already mentioned it, but the Aunus Expedition was a Finnish attack on the Soviets long before the USSR ever initiated any war. It was an attack on the Russian Karelia and highlighted the security flaw the Soviets had at hand with a relatively vulnerable Leningrad. Since you're a big fan of the Machiavellian thought process, it'd be fair to mention how beneficial securing Leningrad's safety was to the Soviets.
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Post by Jontti500 on Aug 13, 2014 15:18:02 GMT
So, in other words, the USSR broke the treaty of tartu when they started the Winter war.
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