metoxys
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Post by metoxys on Jan 24, 2017 7:13:27 GMT
scumberg why did you bump this half year old thread
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Tsupernami
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Post by Tsupernami on Jan 24, 2017 12:17:46 GMT
Well now that it has come back, the Supreme Court has ruled that Parliament must vote on it first.
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Post by Daleks (@darkalex45) on Mar 29, 2017 19:44:40 GMT
Its official now rip D:
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Post by positivetension on Mar 29, 2017 20:54:13 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 6:21:34 GMT
I'm not a fan of BREXIT, but honestly it will be fine. I don't like all these worst case scenarios that is getting thrown around on the media.
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Hystery
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Post by Hystery on Mar 30, 2017 9:40:16 GMT
You'll be fine, this EU is the EU of money and corruption, you'd be better off without it. Sure you'll have a little down period, but it'll stabilize quickly. I wish my country did the same.
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clone
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Post by clone on Mar 30, 2017 9:46:56 GMT
Gonna miss ya!
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Tsupernami
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Post by Tsupernami on Mar 30, 2017 10:01:51 GMT
It's clearly the wrong decision from a humanity perspective, it only makes sense from a selfish perspective. That is the only way to justify it and if that's what you voted for, so be it, that's how democracy works. But if you voted for it as a vote for protest and to break the status quo, you're a moron and you will learn your lesson.
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Hystery
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Post by Hystery on Mar 30, 2017 10:19:35 GMT
It's clearly the wrong decision from a humanity perspective, it only makes sense from a selfish perspective. That is the only way to justify it and if that's what you voted for, so be it, that's how democracy works. But if you voted for it as a vote for protest and to break the status quo, you're a moron and you will learn your lesson. I personally don't understand the arguments of "humanity" and "selfish". The EU as it stands now is just a parliament full of people that are voting laws about plenty of things where we have no right to say anything whatsoever. Let's say Germany wants to pass a bill/policy, but Italy disagrees with it -worse, it's bad for its economy/industry/anything. Well if the rest of the parliament agrees with Germany and votes for its bill/policy, Italy's last resort is to cry in a corner as it sees its econmy/industry/anything getting rolled over. The EU as it is right now gives people a feeling of being powerless about what's happening within the EU. And that's without talking about the thousands of lobbyists swarming the parliament everyday to influence the EU lawmakers into passing laws for whatever company/organization they lobby for, or the voting of TAFTA or CETA bills that would literally destroy the european economy to the advantage of the US/Canada. The EU right now is the EU of uncontrolled liberalization of the market and austerity. It ruins the economy of most countries. I'm an economic protectionist at heart, and I don't want Romanian workers to move in France just to get paid 200 euros a month while the company pays no tax whatsoever to the state, which is allowed thanks to the EU laws. Now don't make me say what I didn't say, Romanian workers are free to move around as they wish, but I consider if they work in my country, they should be paid as much as I am, while the company they work for should pay the employee taxes to the government like it should be. As it is right now, there's only three possible outcomes for the EU. Either we let it continue doing whatever it's doing right now and Europe will soon become the new third-world countries, or we try to change it from the inside (unlikely due to how EU treaties work), or we leave it (and why not trying to build a new EU, based on more decent principles other than power and money). Either way, I could go on and on about all the things wrong about the EU right now, so I'll stop now. But honestly, I don't think you need to insult people who think different from you. Calling them "morons" is unneeded, and doesn't help making your point more valid, on top of being disrespectful.
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Tsupernami
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Post by Tsupernami on Mar 30, 2017 11:35:52 GMT
OK, you have a point on the insult, that wasn't fair. Sorry.
In the UK, when comparing the voters to the choices they made, voters over the age of 50 with qualifications up to GCSE/O levels (equivalent to the age of 16 education), more of these voted to leave. When looking at voters under the age of 30 with a degree from university, more of these voted to remain.
So those with a higher education were more likely to vote remain. The labour workforce of the country was likely to vote leave. Like you, they think it's harder to get a job because it's being "taken by foreigners". Maybe that's true, but why? It's illegal in the UK to pay below the minimum wage of around £8 an hour, so they can't work for less. People are entitled in this country, they won't do the dirty jobs.
EU migrants as a whole pay more into the UK economy than they have ever taken out. As for your point about passing laws, the EU has no say whatsoever on the laws you pass within your country unless they directly contravene an EU law. They are also elected, contrary to popular belief, you elect an MEP to represent your country every few years, just like you elect normal government officials. It's basically a democratic collection of nations, isn't that the goal of humanity, to be one? The more we recognise our differences, the more discrimination and hatred persists within the world.
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Hystery
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Post by Hystery on Mar 30, 2017 12:12:08 GMT
I actually don't think jobs are "taken by foreigners", at least not in the pejorative sense most nationalist/populist parties do. I'll have to get a bit into the technical point to explain that, if you allow me. Unfortunately I don't know about the legislation for the UK, so I'll take mine as an example.
In France, when an employer hires someone and pays them, he has to pay taxes, called employer contributions. Those contributions help financing our healthcare, alternative healthcares, governmental aids, all that kind of stuff. The employee also pays contributions, on his salary. The EU has a thing that is called posted worker. It basically allows workers of any country (member of the EU) to move around freely within the EU borders to find work. It would be good enough like that, but the problem is this: when a french employer hires a posted worker, let's say lituanian, the french employer doesn't pay contributions to the french government, but to the lituanian government. And because contributions are much, much, MUCH lower in eastern european countries, the labor cost of those posted workers is much much lower, making french workers less competitive, which in turn makes french employers hire more of those posted workers to increase their benefits. This does not only hurt the french state budget, but also, as a balancing effect, gives advantage to a foreign economy, making ours also less competitive, and allows employers to do an employment blackmail. "Oh, you want to do this job, for this wage? Well, either you take the legal minimum wage, or I'll hire this romanian guy over there". It forces french workers to lower their standards even though they shouldn't have to (that's how we end with people with 5 years of university studies and two diplomas doing a cashier job in a supermarket).
Now don't get me wrong. I might be an economic protectionist, but I'm a humanist as well. I do not believe in differences between individuals, no matter their skin color, their religion, their homeland, their beliefs. We're all human beings. My enemy is the finance, the power of money and the puppets that are just trying to make our lives worse just for their own profit. I'm a liberal when it comes to social questions (for example, I was all for the same-sex marriage in my country when the bill was debated back in 2013), but protectionist when it comes to economy (I will always prefer to make my country's economy grow rather than make it slow down just for a foreign economy to profit out of it).
Another example is the TAFTA/CETA scenario. Sure, the EU lawmakers are elected by the people. But how many actually do listen to those people, and do not go by their own agenda or the one of their government? A great part of the european population is against the TAFTA/CETA things due to how much they'd hurt the smaller companies, workers rights, EU regulations and so on so forth. Yet the TAFTA/CETA things remained favorable at the parliament, the TAFTA only being stopped because of Trump's election. They might be elected, but once they sit at the parliament, they follow what the lobbyists tell them to do, or what their own agenda/home goverment agenda tells them to do. And just like that, they pass laws, bills and policies, giving no damn about what it could do. And no matter how much a government could fight against it, the EU policies will always prevail over a country's laws, to ensure an hegemony throughout the continent.
I'm all for a European Union. I really am. It's needed anyway, to have a place to defend between the US imperialism, China that is growing strong and Russia that still has a strong influence in international diplomacy. But I'm not for a European Union that is just here to force austerity measures over its countrymembers. That is just here to let the economy be deregulated to the point soon companies will hold more powers than governments (another point in CETA that infuriates me, where companies could sue governments like a cigarettes company did sue Australia and won, forcing the Australian government to hand over millions of dollars). I'm for a European Union that would raise the social status of its inhabitants. That would improve their lives, not to force them to lower their standards to match the poorest countries, instead of helping the poorest countries to rise. But for this kind of European Union to happen, the previous one has to die. The European treaties are one too any to modify them towards this end. And most lobbyists would do all they can so it would never happen. So the best solution in my eyes is to just leave the EU altogether, and bring allies that agree with us (like Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece) to create a new union, more fair and less destructive for the people. A new union that wouldn't be led by the greed of power, where money and economic liberalism wouldn't be the only things lawmakers think about.
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Post by Daleks (@darkalex45) on Mar 30, 2017 12:43:50 GMT
Great points from both of you, it still seems like we all would have liked to make the UK remain it seems like.
Imo, I just feel like this is an unnecessary thing which will just result in making life difficult for everyone. We won't die, it will just make life more annoying.
Then again we said that about Trump and he is now looking to kill the environment :lul:.
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Tsupernami
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Post by Tsupernami on Mar 30, 2017 12:53:32 GMT
Hystery I'm going to reply when I get home from work, it's taking up a bit too much of my time 😊
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drknut
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Post by drknut on Mar 30, 2017 13:03:34 GMT
The EU as it stands now is just a parliament full of people that are voting laws about plenty of things where we have no right to say anything whatsoever. This sentence perfectly sums up what's most prominently wrong about the EU: the perception of the people. Are you aware that you voted (or more likely had a chance to vote) that very parliament you are accusing of autocratic rule?
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double_s92
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Post by double_s92 on Mar 30, 2017 13:06:10 GMT
Idgaf anymore to be honest, just hope Mother Teresa negotiates something decent.
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