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Post by doompenguin on Jun 7, 2016 19:16:44 GMT
My wording was off, I wanted to raise an issue only with the Round 1, Race 1 + 2 grids.
What I meant was that it's fine having Round 1, Race 1's grid as random.
Where I struggle to see the logic is that rather than taking the random grid positions in Round 1, Race 1 and simply reversing them for Round 1, Race 2 so that people get the same 14th place average starting position - Instead the grid for Round 1, Race 2 is also random, which hands an advantage to some and royally buttfucks others.
Look at the grids for Bad Loser, Snuggles and Codex. They're getting shafted compared to everyone else.
I'm missing the first weekend anyway so it doesn't effect me directly. I just find it difficult to comprehend why having two entirely random grids is the better choice compared to an average 14th starting position.
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Post by Oh_Darn on Jun 7, 2016 19:34:53 GMT
Where I struggle to see the logic is that rather than taking the random grid positions in Round 1, Race 1 and simply reversing them for Round 1, Race 2 so that people get the same 14th place average starting position - Instead the grid for Round 1, Race 2 is also random, which hands an advantage to some and royally buttfucks others. Thats exactly what I proposed in the strategy group, but it got rejected. |
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Post by endersai on Jun 7, 2016 20:55:50 GMT
Doom we already covered this in strategy group. The thing with randomisation is... it's random. I could finish p13 on race 2 and start p27 on race 3. You could finish p1 and start p12. The randomisation is as fair ax can be made since an objective third party sorts the lists. I cannot and will not entertain the idea of saying "well, Loser broke random.org's heart and they clearly have an issue with him which is why he gets fucked on random grids so I'll move him up the grid and swap him with <person X>", even though Loser does seem to get fucked on these grids. This is how it's going to be. Worked fine in S1 and s2. It'll be fine in S4. I seem to recall you started last at the Masters Spa race and still won it so I dont feel these are death sentences. I also want to point out Pezby got a last placed grid, liked the post and hasn't said a word about it. |
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Post by doompenguin on Jun 7, 2016 21:16:48 GMT
The randomisation is as fair axe can be made since an objective third party sorts the lists I have no problem with this, the trouble is that you're doing it twice when it only needs to be done once. I'm only talking about Round 1, Racer 1+2 here and not the whole season. Enter everyone's names into the RNG and stuff them in that order onto a grid. Boom - you got race 1 sorted. Then simply flip that grid so it's facing the other way for race 2. The guy in 28th for race 1 is now on pole, the person who started 14th starts 14th again regardless of where they finished in race 1. That is the fairest way of doing things. Roll the dice once and its enough as far as Round 1 is concerned. Doing it all over again defeats the purpose of having things be as fair as possible. Example for Round 1: Race 1: As decided by RNGesus 1st: Batman 2nd: Tupac 3rd: King Kong 4th: Maggie Thatcher 5th: Bob the Builder Race 2: As decided by that first consultation with RNGesus, but reversed. 1st: Bob the Builder 2nd: Maggie Thatcher 3rd: King Kong 4th: Tupac 5th: Batman |
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Post by endersai on Jun 7, 2016 21:38:50 GMT
It's been clear since the OP and discussed in strategy group that round 1, races 1 and 2 will be randomised.
I note your idea and it is a good one however the grids published will stand. Which is another way of saying I don't intend on this being a discussion point any longer.
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Post by Grumples_Plox (grimreaper977) on Jun 7, 2016 21:52:05 GMT
Grim we already covered this in strategy group. The thing with randomisation is... it's random. I could finish p13 on race 2 and start p27 on race 3. I do not remember even having this just complaining with no real answer |
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Post by endersai on Jun 7, 2016 21:56:05 GMT
Lol sorry mate I meant doom! You know how late I was up...  |
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Post by endersai on Jun 8, 2016 3:00:40 GMT
Actually this is something, given the people I suspected would like Doom's post, liked Doom's post, that should be clarified.
No, in my view, the flipping of the grids for Race 2 is not fairer. It only looks that way to someone because they're at the arse end of Race 1's Grid.
The way I explained it in strategy group was this - the median position for 28 cars is Position 14.5.
That is, there are as many cars from P 1 - 14 as there are from P15 - 28
Anyone in one arbitrary standard deviation from that mean, say positions 11 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 - they have the lowest range of motion relative to others, with the ones right around the mean barely moving at all: 17 16 15 14 13 12 11.
The people in positions 1-10 and 18-28 have the biggest range of motion, from P28 to P1, P27 to P2, etc. The people who started lowest have the biggest net advantage in race 2 after biggest net disadvantage; and vice versa.
On a random grid, every driver as a 1 in 28 chance of scoring pole position.
It is tempting but fallacious to infer a lack of fairness in randomisation. An objective third party is given a list and makes a decision on how to randomise that list, based on stacked probabilities. That you might end up in P19 and P18 under a random system is unfortunate, not unfair. The odds of you being in P1 were the same both times. I cannot give you a better chance than the same odds as every other driver.
Now, you could ask why I would not look and say "gosh, Bad Loser's starting lower than P24 both races*, that's not fair" and fix it.
(* Just using you Loser because I remember random grids mostly put you at one end or another. Never in the middle).
The reason is simple - I undertook in the OP, and you all signed up, to random grids. If I alter them, they cease to be random. They cease to be fair. It may be unfair (more likely unfortunate or unlucky, truth be told) to one person to be at the back of the grid, but it's more unfair to more people to swap that driver with someone else. Because to do that I have to make a judgement call on who gets moved. Or, I have to review the results and think, no, that person ought not be at the front, and this person is at the back again. Keep going til I get one I like".
No, sorry guys. Random grids are exponentially fairer than any other manual method available to us in the absence of a qualifying mode in GTA. Everyone goes in with identical odds for pole position.
You don't have to like where it put you - how many really think I said "oh goody, I'm in position 26 of 28 for the first race?" - but you cannot confuse the results with unfairness.
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Post by endersai on Jun 8, 2016 3:11:19 GMT
Oh_Darn Sugar_Free_NosNow that the update has given us baller as fuck offices, we could and should host an SATCC themed chat show on Twitch prior to the first race. Maybe 1-2 hours before grid up time, having no more than 5 (total) pre-picked SATCC vets in either the SCUM Unit or Damage, Inc offices (the lounge areas with the TV) to, like we did we did with Grotti F1. I would even rename my company CLOUD SPORTS for it. Not only would we give a preview of the series ahead, with key tracks, our picks for likely champions, and the like but, if there's enough views and HYPE, take questions from Twitch. Thoughts?
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Tspoon
Member
Posts: 330 
Registered on: February 2016
Steam: Tspoon
Social Club: TurtleNamedMack
Discord: Tspoon#5355
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Post by Tspoon on Jun 8, 2016 3:15:48 GMT
Id watch. This could be really comical.
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The_Bad_Loser
Member
Recent Status?
Posts: 1,044
Registered on: July 2014
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Post by The_Bad_Loser on Jun 8, 2016 4:45:07 GMT
Just for the sake of clarity, endersai , my agreement with Doom's perspective has nothing to do with my starting position. I won't argue the merits of his perspective as you've closed the case, and fairly so. I just didn't want to send the message that I was upset about my position. I'll start wherever the fates put me.  |
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Post by endersai on Jun 8, 2016 4:55:35 GMT
...which is usually at the front or back of the grid.
It's like the CEO of Random.Org is like "I love you! I hate you! I love that I hate you... but I hate that I love you."
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Post by Tonyborbony on Jun 8, 2016 8:06:30 GMT
Oh_Darn Sugar_Free_NosNow that the update has given us baller as fuck offices, we could and should host an SATCC themed chat show on Twitch prior to the first race. Maybe 1-2 hours before grid up time, having no more than 5 (total) pre-picked SATCC vets in either the SCUM Unit or Damage, Inc offices (the lounge areas with the TV) to, like we did we did with Grotti F1. I would even rename my company CLOUD SPORTS for it. Not only would we give a preview of the series ahead, with key tracks, our picks for likely champions, and the like but, if there's enough views and HYPE, take questions from Twitch. Thoughts? Please make this happen! |
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Post by Daleks (@darkalex45) on Jun 8, 2016 10:33:27 GMT
Honestly the best thing about this update is the offices which have great chair sitting animations
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Post by Daleks (@darkalex45) on Jun 8, 2016 10:36:49 GMT
also Bestia GTS I heard from brough is comet pace, so next season a downgraded bestia GTS would be awesome to see |
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