mrcleanup
Member
Posts: 383
Registered on: May 2015
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Post by mrcleanup on Jun 8, 2015 17:34:43 GMT
Like I said when all this first got started with 2 tires and such, IT IS TOO COMPLICATED!!! Honestly after trying to simplify the tire option to myself and make a case to adjust or change the pit strategy, I just want you to put me down on PC as a Cameraman and take me off as a Racer for Manor.
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Post by captainpower on Jun 8, 2015 17:38:51 GMT
That's absurdly complicated to keep track of. Pick two pit windows of 3 laps each for every race. Everyone has to pit during those windows. Done and done.
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Xepy★̅
Member
Nah.
Posts: 624
Registered on: April 2015
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Post by Xepy★̅ on Jun 8, 2015 18:04:06 GMT
I like Ovivo's idea on this, its simple enough to keep track of but can allow for the different tactics that the current system has. With that idea, for BC24h with the suggested tire lifespan (and assuming 19 laps), the pit window for those who use soft at the start will be between laps 4-7; those who use hard at the start will be between 12-15 (Assuming you only pit once). When we have more laps this could get complicated, but its pretty straight forward for the first race at least. Experimenting on this race won't hurt anyone's brains too much. With the current option, you'll be looking at around 4-5 laps on soft, 10-11 laps on hard. Which on BC24h opens the pits pretty much the whole race assuming two pit stops, with a bit more maths involved driver side. Of course, its up to R4C3RJK99 to decide what to in terms of this stuff.
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Post by captainpower on Jun 8, 2015 18:10:36 GMT
It's not even about hurting people's brains, it's about keeping track of it all and policing it during a race. The more complex you make things, the more difficult it will be to keep track of and police to ensure compliance. It takes 2 minutes to looks at how many laps are in a race and say, here are the two pit windows. And it's simple for a pit watcher to time and keep track of who uses the pits properly and improperly.
If you make things more complicated than they need to be, you'll have problems. People will fuck up the pit stops, and the pit watcher will have a nightmare trying to keep track of who did what, and when. Just stop trying to make this a true-to-life race, pick pit windows and it's done. Otherwise people will be looking to game the pit stops and the pit watchers won't be able to keep track of who's doing what.
Edit: This is logistics 101. More complex systems have more points of faliure, and the probability of something going wrong increases. Also, Murphy's law. If something can go wrong, it will, eventually. Keep it simple, fewer things will go wrong, and less frequently.
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Xepy★̅
Member
Nah.
Posts: 624
Registered on: April 2015
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Post by Xepy★̅ on Jun 8, 2015 18:49:36 GMT
Its not really that complicated. I'll tell you what the pit windows you have with the timed one:
Starting with soft: window 1: Laps 2-5 Window 2: Laps 9-15 Hard: window 1: Laps 5-11 Window 2: Laps 10-16
Its just really big windows with the possibility of a driver that's not into F1 fucking up because they weren't going to keep track of the pit windows regardless. And I already said the windows for the limited laps idea.
You want simple, just pan the whole psuedo "F1" thing and get rid of the pit strategy all together and do a normal race. Less things to go wrong right?
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Post by captainpower on Jun 8, 2015 19:17:51 GMT
Less things to go wrong logistically (and statistically) is not the same as less things to go wrong due to racing incidents, which is inherent to racing. Stop with the reductio ad absurdum.
Your idea of variable pit windows adds unnecessary complexity without any benefit of immersion. There exists no mechanism to measure tyre degradation, so someone could pit on laps 2 and 15 running 13 laps on a hard tyre that should only last 8-10 laps according to you, and run from laps 5-16 running 11 laps on softs that should only be lasing a few laps. You're not adding more realism, you're only adding more, and unnecessary, complexity, particularly since there is no realistic tire degradation. The idea of "hard" and "soft" tires doesn't apply. Period. It's just a name given to help determine pit windows, that you're taking too literally and too far.
We want to race, not nitpick every minutiae. The other elements like teams, team colours, etc. that you suggest we do away with do add to the immersion and enjoyment with little to no complexity. Stop being ridiculous.
Everyone pits laps 2-5 and everyone pits laps 10-13. You can tell people that right before the race even, and everyone will know; they won't have to fret about picking the best strategy; the pit watchers won't have to keep track of diffent strategies; people won't be able to game the pits by switching strategies on the fly in the hopes the pit watches won't catch them; no one has to report their strategy before the race starts.
Stop making this a chore. Pick two pit windows and call it a day.
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Deleted
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Registered on: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 20:34:55 GMT
Ferrari car showcase What tires and colours (including pearlescent)
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Xepy★̅
Member
Nah.
Posts: 624
Registered on: April 2015
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Post by Xepy★̅ on Jun 8, 2015 20:55:31 GMT
Well the whole idea of having to pit for no reason makes no sense anyways, why not just do away with the whole concept? What exactly is the point of having two pit windows; if my car is damaged I'll go in there to fix it, I don't want to wait an arbituary amount of time because "Formula 1". I was just saying the whole variable thing wasn't a complex idea and its not hard to keep track of at all. You choose to either do your pit early with a bigger gap inbetween or do it later with a smaller gap inbetween. But hey, if you want to nitpick on an idea that makes no damn sense in GTA in the first place, be my guest.
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Deleted
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Registered on: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 21:09:26 GMT
Ferrari car showcase What tires and colours (including pearlescent) Color: Formula Red/Ice White Rims: Countersteer Wheel Color: Alloy (Custom Tire) Spoiler: GT Wing Exhaust: Chrome Tip Exhaust (Doesn't matter) Windows: None Suspension: None Roof: Painted Roof Plate: Yellow on Black (Ferrari got yellow sponsers/text on their F1 car) Also new picture.
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ovivoJR
Member
World Championship´s: Grotti F1 2015, Formula E , SATCC Season 1, SATCC Season 4
Posts: 1,512
Registered on: May 2015
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Post by ovivoJR on Jun 8, 2015 21:10:37 GMT
Less things to go wrong logistically (and statistically) is not the same as less things to go wrong due to racing incidents, which is inherent to racing. Stop with the reductio ad absurdum. Your idea of variable pit windows adds unnecessary complexity without any benefit of immersion. There exists no mechanism to measure tyre degradation, so someone could pit on laps 2 and 15 running 13 laps on a hard tyre that should only last 8-10 laps according to you, and run from laps 5-16 running 11 laps on softs that should only be lasing a few laps. You're not adding more realism, you're only adding more, and unnecessary, complexity, particularly since there is no realistic tire degradation. The idea of "hard" and "soft" tires doesn't apply. Period. It's just a name given to help determine pit windows, that you're taking too literally and too far. We want to race, not nitpick every minutiae. The other elements like teams, team colours, etc. that you suggest we do away with do add to the immersion and enjoyment with little to no complexity. Stop being ridiculous. Everyone pits laps 2-5 and everyone pits laps 10-13. You can tell people that right before the race even, and everyone will know; they won't have to fret about picking the best strategy; the pit watchers won't have to keep track of diffent strategies; people won't be able to game the pits by switching strategies on the fly in the hopes the pit watches won't catch them; no one has to report their strategy before the race starts. Stop making this a chore. Pick two pit windows and call it a day. I am with you on this one. Pitstop window is still the best system.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Registered on: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 21:22:55 GMT
Well the whole idea of having to pit for no reason makes no sense anyways, why not just do away with the whole concept? What exactly is the point of having two pit windows; if my car is damaged I'll go in there to fix it, I don't want to wait an arbituary amount of time because "Formula 1". I was just saying the whole variable thing wasn't a complex idea and its not hard to keep track of at all. You choose to either do your pit early with a bigger gap inbetween or do it later with a smaller gap inbetween. But hey, if you want to nitpick on an idea that makes no damn sense in GTA in the first place, be my guest. Pitstop windows and/or mandatory tires, adds another factor to the race. Whether or not it will factor for or against you seems random though. So instead of adding another skill layer, the skill gap is simple lessened by the random factor of when people chooses to pit/change tires.
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Post by Ser Tandur on Jun 8, 2015 21:26:01 GMT
This is starting to degenerate into a "Is this a serious, competitive, palm sweating event" or "Is this something for me to get my jollies on." I can't speak for R4C3RJK99 (who seems to be on another hiatus) on how serious he wants this event to be, but I will say this: new ideas on how to run an event are always welcome, because no one can think of everything. But throwing a temper tantrum about it is not the way to go. Constructive criticism is more useful than hot-headed criticism, because there's room for conversation in the former. The latter is a line drawn in the sand more often than not. Each event is someone's attempt to have a racing experience and share it with others. How that experience is flavored is up to the creativity of each event organizer. Before signing up for an event, if it isn't to your taste, then find another one. One doesn't exist? Then create the event yourself, with your rules. The event you're in starts to change its rules in a way that doesn't suit you? No one is stopping you from resigning, and no one will think less of you for doing so.
Personally, the pit format set in the OP is simple and easy to understand. It also works well into the future for each race. Rather than try and determine the laps that we pit on each track, since it would be different, focusing on the constant is the better route. Each race is 60 minutes. The pit windows are 10-15, 30-35, and 40-50 minutes into the race. This is easy to remember, and works for everyone, regardless of what lap they are really on. There is strategy involved, based on your own racing skill. Are you the type of person who starts strong but begins to fade in endurance races? You want to pit late. Are you the type of person who wrecks alot to start, but finishes strong once in the groove? Pit early. There is even in race strategy, because for the longer tracks, the window is big enough that you can pit at the START or END of the lap the window is open for. On BC24, the window would start at the end of Lap 3, start of Lap 4 (pit option 1) and still be open by the end of Lap 4 (pit option 2). Everyone is overthinking it. As for the "compounds" they are meaningless, it is simply a role-playing aspect of the event to explain why we pit, and why we pit at different times.
Race officials is going to be an issue in that we are not going to have enough, if any for some platforms I suspect. For the pressure and responsibilities, it's going to be difficult to find someone to do this job w/o getting some form of compensation. Even Shaggy got compensated, however little, by the views and potential subs he was getting. But if we do have officials, keeping track of the pits is not difficult. You write down everyone who is going to pit early in one column, everyone who is going to pit late in a second column, and the whole field in a third column. When players come in to pit, you check them off the list. Anyone who didn't come in during the window and didn't get a check get's penalized (w/e that is). P.S. We need some of you Playstation members to focus on remaking the tracks. 3 2 are still needed on PS3, 4 on PS4.
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Xepy★̅
Member
Nah.
Posts: 624
Registered on: April 2015
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Post by Xepy★̅ on Jun 8, 2015 21:52:26 GMT
Well the whole idea of having to pit for no reason makes no sense anyways, why not just do away with the whole concept? What exactly is the point of having two pit windows; if my car is damaged I'll go in there to fix it, I don't want to wait an arbituary amount of time because "Formula 1". I was just saying the whole variable thing wasn't a complex idea and its not hard to keep track of at all. You choose to either do your pit early with a bigger gap inbetween or do it later with a smaller gap inbetween. But hey, if you want to nitpick on an idea that makes no damn sense in GTA in the first place, be my guest. Pitstop windows and/or mandatory tires, adds another factor to the race. Whether or not it will factor for or against you seems random though. So instead of adding another skill layer, the skill gap is simple lessened by the random factor of when people chooses to pit/change tires. I agree it does add another factor into the race, just that the mechanic of having to stop in a predetermined amount of laps because "something something pit stops" makes no sense. If we have to do it, I rather the freedom of when we're allowed to do the stops (even if its only the choice of two different times). The idea of tire compounds is also a better excuse than "Yeah, we need you to stop at the pits sometimes because Formula 1". Anyways, if we do stay with the "tire compounds" thing, I would like to stay around as a pit watcher since at least that has more things to do than the other way. If we don't, I'll probably wait till I get a Turismo before looking back into this.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Registered on: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 21:53:56 GMT
This is starting to degenerate into a "Is this a serious, competitive, palm sweating event" or "Is this something for me to get my jollies on." I can't speak for R4C3RJK99 (who seems to be on another hiatus) on how serious he wants this event to be, but I will say this: new ideas on how to run an event are always welcome, because no one can think of everything. But throwing a temper tantrum about it is not the way to go. Constructive criticism is more useful than hot-headed criticism, because there's room for conversation in the former. The latter is a line drawn in the sand more often than not. Each event is someone's attempt to have a racing experience and share it with others. How that experience is flavored is up to the creativity of each event organizer. Before signing up for an event, if it isn't to your taste, then find another one. One doesn't exist? Then create the event yourself, with your rules. The event you're in starts to change its rules in a way that doesn't suit you? No one is stopping you from resigning, and no one will think less of you for doing so.
Personally, the pit format set in the OP is simple and easy to understand. It also works well into the future for each race. Rather than try and determine the laps that we pit on each track, since it would be different, focusing on the constant is the better route. Each race is 60 minutes. The pit windows are 10-15, 30-35, and 40-50 minutes into the race. This is easy to remember, and works for everyone, regardless of what lap they are really on. There is strategy involved, based on your own racing skill. Are you the type of person who starts strong but begins to fade in endurance races? You want to pit late. Are you the type of person who wrecks alot to start, but finishes strong once in the groove? Pit early. There is even in race strategy, because for the longer tracks, the window is big enough that you can pit at the START or END of the lap the window is open for. On BC24, the window would start at the end of Lap 3, start of Lap 4 (pit option 1) and still be open by the end of Lap 4 (pit option 2). Everyone is overthinking it. As for the "compounds" they are meaningless, it is simply a role-playing aspect of the event to explain why we pit, and why we pit at different times.
Race officials is going to be an issue in that we are not going to have enough, if any for some platforms I suspect. For the pressure and responsibilities, it's going to be difficult to find someone to do this job w/o getting some form of compensation. Even Shaggy got compensated, however little, by the views and potential subs he was getting. But if we do have officials, keeping track of the pits is not difficult. You write down everyone who is going to pit early in one column, everyone who is going to pit late in a second column, and the whole field in a third column. When players come in to pit, you check them off the list. Anyone who didn't come in during the window and didn't get a check get's penalized (w/e that is). P.S. We need some of you Playstation members to focus on remaking the tracks. 3 2 are still needed on PS3, 4 on PS4. This makes a lot more sense now. What confused me, was that the roleplay aspect was used to explain the functionality. Leaving the RPG aspect out and surely it makes sense. Since time, not laps are the key factor surely the lap window should be time based. I'm digging it.
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Post by captainpower on Jun 8, 2015 21:59:03 GMT
I do have one other issue I'd like to clarify. For pit stops, if there is a queue of cars, you don't have to wait 30 seconds from when you're in the front of the queue, right? Otherwise all cars will leave the pits 30 seconds apart.
The 30 seconds begins from the moment you stop in line in the pit exit queue, so that cars that enter the pits at the same time will also leave at roughly the same time. Correct?
Edit: Or, are there enough pit boxes, so that everyone stops in their own pit box for 30 seconds, then leaves?
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