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Post by CHILLI on Jan 15, 2016 21:37:52 GMT
Hm... so the boost sound on some cars isnt just different audio then? For example the Baller LE and Tampa have a very consistent whine compared to most cars. I guess one way to indentify it is if there's a dump sound or not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2016 0:08:44 GMT
Brawlers back tire like a spoiler? Is not a spoiler, It just adds more protection to it when the roof hits the ground.
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fuksias
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Registered on: October 2015
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Post by fuksias on Jan 16, 2016 0:18:25 GMT
TURBO CONFIGURATION FULL STORY
the way the turbo works is like a twin turbo or a turbo + supercharger in all cars. the turbo that kicks inn first behaves differently than the second turbo.
the first turbo reacts to throttle input much like the rev-counter does, it is possible to hold it at any given amount of boost and decrease or increase it at variable rate.
the second turbo will never kick inn before the first turbo is at max charge. The firs turbo will never decharge before the second one is out of charge. the second turbo can gives variable amount of boost, but it can only have 4 states of operation: no charge, max charge, charging, de-charging. the rate of charging and de-charging is always constant. its possible to keep the second turbo at half chargeby rapidly going off and on the throttle. The second turbo appears to be more powerful than the first turbo, but that might be because the first turbo is not very easy to detect/measure.
WHY THIS IS IMPORTANT AND WHY HALF THROTTLE IS IMPORTANT
half throttle is a technique that a lot of the best guys use (if not all). this is why its faster! the max rate of charging in both turbos is severely limited, but when half throttle is used successfully through a corner the first turbo will never decharge because half throttle is enough to max out the first turbo in most cars, this means you can manipulate how soon after a corner the second turbo is activated, thus giving more power more quickly. this can also be described as turbo lag and might explain why flow is so damn important to get quick lap times. this information is probably more useful in battles as it can give you a better exit even if you are taking a slower line through a corner.
CARS THAT DONT FIT THE EXPLENATION
The coquette (sports) gets full boost almost instantly (before hitting 5000 rpm 1st gear while spinning) and it takes forever to decharge (Wont decharge unless fully stopped for 15 seconds. It Decharge like supercharger when holding handbrake and tapping the throttle if already decharged) Took me a good amount of time to convince myself this wasn't a flat boost because its so instant. This is also the only car i have tested where the boost indicator is active even if turbo isn't installed. this also make me doubt my findings for this car. as stated i might have been fooled by gearchanges doing this test. IN SHORT: more testing needed
Z-type turbo works properly, its just not very strong.
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Hertz
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Post by Hertz on Jan 19, 2016 4:51:02 GMT
This has to be brought up in the forum. Why not. This has been brought up both in Slack and the physics chat in slack. Is there ABS for cars in GTA or not? Discuss. The side that says there is no ABS: youtu.be/1sRRgPXvqP4?t=23m15sI will tag CHILLI since he is probably the best to explain why he thinks cars have ABS. But basically his argument is that there has been ABS since IV. Here's the image he used to describe it.
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Post by CHILLI on Jan 19, 2016 5:13:24 GMT
Well, considering that the most common model flag setup is "440010" it's safe to assume that "ABS_STD" refers to braking, using the "standard" method whatever that means. "440010" translates to McPherson, McPherson, null, null, ABS_STD, null. And it holds true for a lot of cars, the way their camber changes looks a lot like how McPherson geometry would behave. Seeing as even GTA SA had two ABS options for cars (one for the player, one for AI if I recall correctly) I see no reason why their successors wouldnt. Although it was very basic, limiting the braking force to be near the traction limit, it was still a very real thing. Some cars stayed nicely controlled during braking like the Banshee, while others required a bit finesse to stay in control like the Infernus that locked up all 4 if you werent careful. Also I already mentioned this in the first post of the handling spreadsheet thread aswell, which is where that screenshot comes from.
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OshawottPro
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Registered on: August 2015
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Post by OshawottPro on Jan 19, 2016 18:19:23 GMT
Anyone knows a good spoiler for the panto? that car is so ****** hard to drive sometimes. I want a good setup for it
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Pardonias
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Registered on: December 2014
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Post by Pardonias on Jan 19, 2016 19:26:28 GMT
Well, I remember Nismo. recommending the large one that extends to the rear because it makes your small Panto longer (rather than higher).
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fuksias
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Posts: 42
Registered on: October 2015
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Post by fuksias on Jan 19, 2016 22:24:01 GMT
guys, i think you both missed something IMPORTANT. the injections model flags are 110040. not 440010!
if i understod CHILLI's way of reading hex code correctly, that means: axle f torsion, axle r torsion and ABS ALT STD that means this car uses a different abs than the majority of cars in the game. do not base your research on any findings with this car, unless you compare it to other cars with the same abs system
pay attention to details folks
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hoche350
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Registered on: October 2015
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Post by hoche350 on Jan 20, 2016 8:28:51 GMT
" Every physical body has something known as the Centre of Mass or Gravity. This is a point usually inside of the volume that makes up the hitbox of the vehicles aswell as the destructible props. From here the pull of gravity is applied, hence why it's referred to as CoG. The way this point is traditionally decided is by looking at the bounding size of each hitbox that makes up the body and then taking the average position vs size of it all. Keep in mind that the CoG is only based on what's permanently attached, so things like the doors or hood wont change the main car's CoG as those parts are seperate physical bodies. So say you lose a door that wont make the car lighter on that side nor heavier on the opposite. " Im not sure if it is a placebo efect ( I havent made any tests, or know how to test it) but it feels like when on my carbonizare I put the roof down , the cog gets lower and the rear feels a bit lighter.
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Hertz
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Winner of Chiliad-Sandy Triathlon
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Post by Hertz on Jan 20, 2016 8:48:00 GMT
Im not sure if it is a placebo efect ( I havent made any tests, or know how to test it) but it feels like when on my carbonizare I put the roof down , the cog gets lower and the rear feels a bit lighter. CoM is almost impossible to test objectively. But as far as models (so far) say the CoM is decided by the bounding box. Anyone should be able to pull up a carbonizzare model and see this, if you are wondering. But the roof itself is inside the bounding box, so barring crazy scenarios, this is most likely a placebo. That's not to mention that the parts such as roof do not really behave as you would expect. So, yes, this is a placebo.
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Post by CHILLI on Jan 20, 2016 9:56:08 GMT
Im not sure if it is a placebo efect ( I havent made any tests, or know how to test it) but it feels like when on my carbonizare I put the roof down , the cog gets lower and the rear feels a bit lighter. CoM is almost impossible to test objectively. But as far as models (so far) say the CoM is decided by the bounding box. Anyone should be able to pull up a carbonizzare model and see this, if you are wondering. But the roof itself is inside the bounding box, so barring crazy scenarios, this is most likely a placebo. That's not to mention that the parts such as roof do not really behave as you would expect. So, yes, this is a placebo. It's not a placebo, it's very plausible that it's a real thing. Because if you stand on top of a car that's putting its roof down the colliders wont update until it has reached the end of the animation, causing you to stand in the air until it's finished. A second reason it's plausible is because I recall seeing the roof of the 9F Cabrio being made out of 3-4 collider parts. Each one if pretty small, but if you count them as a whole it should be enough to cause a noticable difference.
*Double checks some game files*
Hm... Ok so the roof is just one complete piece being turned on and off. So it's certainly plausible that it has the same kind of effect as baggage on the roof. If this is the case it would mean that putting the roof down, disabling the roof part, is how the car would've originally handled. EDIT: And I should mention that a small number of people have told me that putting the roof down on the 9F changes its handling. I briefly tested it, but it was on a new track so I was more busy learning the track than getting a feel for the car. EDIT2: fuksias I was just pointing out a general case. The point I was making is that most cars use some form of ABS, the type of ABS is beside the point. But either way, it's an important observation when inspecting the Injection's handling.
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Hertz
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Post by Hertz on Jan 20, 2016 17:25:06 GMT
CoM is almost impossible to test objectively. But as far as models (so far) say the CoM is decided by the bounding box. Anyone should be able to pull up a carbonizzare model and see this, if you are wondering. But the roof itself is inside the bounding box, so barring crazy scenarios, this is most likely a placebo. That's not to mention that the parts such as roof do not really behave as you would expect. So, yes, this is a placebo. *Double checks some game files*
Hm... Ok so the roof is just one complete piece being turned on and off. So it's certainly plausible that it has the same kind of effect as baggage on the roof. If this is the case it would mean that putting the roof down, disabling the roof part, is how the car would've originally handled. Hm if this is true, I was certainly wrong in prematurely declaring that this is a placebo (I still believe it kinda is!) The reason why I said this is probably a placebo is in some conditions I can see this being immediately false (I am probably wrong here, hopefully I catch you on slack to figure out why)
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Post by tjezc☻ on Jan 20, 2016 17:39:14 GMT
This roof thing.. Why wouldn´t this apply to doors and a hood? Is it because those items do not add anything to the shape of the original bounding box? Does this mean that losing a bumper should have impact on the handling? Because the shape of the vehicle will be altered, like when you lose your trunk+spoiler.
I R VRY CNFUSD
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Hertz
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Winner of Chiliad-Sandy Triathlon
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Post by Hertz on Jan 20, 2016 20:23:32 GMT
This roof thing.. Why wouldn´t this apply to doors and a hood? Is it because those items do not add anything to the shape of the original bounding box? Does this mean that losing a bumper should have impact on the handling? Because the shape of the vehicle will be altered, like when you lose your trunk+spoiler. I R VRY CNFUSD This is still an open question in general if I'm correct. I am still waiting for new Chilli thread but there are many theories as to how CoM would actually work and I'm still following his main line of thinking. Some things are hardcoded, which means even some naive assumptions that would work in real life just doesn't seem to translate. (Good example is how game doesn't treat mass like you would expect) There has been many ways to explain how the car parts work, especially mass, but it's a mess at this point. There are some very safe assumptions we can make though, but I'm just waiting for more facts to be discovered.
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Post by CHILLI on Jan 20, 2016 23:24:22 GMT
This roof thing.. Why wouldn´t this apply to doors and a hood? Is it because those items do not add anything to the shape of the original bounding box? Does this mean that losing a bumper should have impact on the handling? Because the shape of the vehicle will be altered, like when you lose your trunk+spoiler. I R VRY CNFUSD This is when we start heading into the territory of special cases and exceptions. A brief recap on the evolution of GTA's cars: GTA 3-era - Car parts only interact with the environment once detached. When still attached they're only for context and visuals, no physics. GTA IV - Cars parts now interact with the environment when still attached but they remain to have no physical impact on performance. But this adds expected realism. The cars are also allowed to interact with its own detached parts aswell as other cars' parts. GTA V - Introduction of wheels playing a role in interacting with other objects. Before this was exclusive to the car body. For example driving over a vehicle will cause the wheels to deform the other vehicle and the wheels are way less prone to go through stuff sideways. Knowing that V is greatly based on IV in a lot of ways and in turn IV sharing a lot of the basics from the 3-era, it still makes sense that the generic car parts (doors, hood, boot/trunk lid, bumpers and quarter panels) are only contextual helpers with no direct interaction back to the vehicle. The movement of these parts can easily be done through scripted movement because they only take rotation or a set movement path while attached, rarely ever both (if ever? probably never both). On the other hand if they do have a physical effect on the car body we can still assume that their movement never changes anything, attached or not. I have yet to test in V, but in IV even detached parts were still processed as if they were attached. And we know that the spoiler still keeps its effects on the CoM even after being detached (like the back of the Turismo, Osiris or Cheetah falling off), pointing towards that the game still assumes they are a part of the car. And knowing that there can be more than one of the same car part existing at any time, we can pretty safely assume that what happens when a part gets detached is that the original gets disabled/hidden and an exact copy, a clone, is created in its place but is not capable of directly affecting the car's behaviour anymore. It is now treated as a regular prop that just so happens to look identical to the original car part. TL;DR exceptions, hackery and lots of cheating behind the scenes.
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