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Post by cameronman1329 on Dec 9, 2015 14:27:03 GMT
The only thing I can say is that PC times are quicker than console if running at 60fps, even when not abusing kerbs, and lap times plus straight line performance is identical on console to PC when PC is at 30fps (which is how I was able to do the extra testing). More testing does need to be done to work out why there are differences though. I think it's actually simple now I think about it. When you have lower FPS, the car will take longer to react to input, but more importantly, it takes longer to get from A to B. When you are on a console, and it drops from 30 to 20-25 FPS you car sort of freezes a bit, can't describe it properly, but it jitters in that drop, so it sort of stops for milliseconds from moving due to a drop losing a bit of time. Everyone can notice this when they get a drop, the car freezes a bit, or just sort of jitters. Well what if it isn't caused by a change or drop in FPS, but just that the FPS is low. Maybe that when driving at 30FPS there is some jitter for the car, the car actually doesn't continue moving for such a short time, it's pretty much un-noticeable to the eye, but there is extremely small moments where the car doesn't move, in between each frame. so for every second, at 30FPS, the car is moving 30 times in that one second definitively, with the gaps between each frame could mean the car doesn't move or slows down a bit. And on PC at 60FPS, the car moves 60 definitive times per second, so there is more processes of movement in that 1 second. This doesn't mean it's twice as fast, but maybe between each frame there's a lagging behind moment where your car is either stopping for a fraction of a time or isn't moving at the full potential. Maybe a bit like how FO4 has the game engine speed tied to FPS, similar to that but far less noticeable. Could be wrong, could just be me being an idiot
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Post by cameronman1329 on Dec 9, 2015 14:28:34 GMT
That's interesting for sure. So I can do testing on pc at 30 fps and get the results that I could've gotten if I did it on consoles? That would open up a lot of possibilities. No real need for me to do the testing then Nah, might do it soon, but the time to do it is an issue. Also im shocking at syncing videos at the right point, I'll try when I have the time, but this means PC people can test it as well, not just multi-platform people.
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Post by Broughy1322 on Dec 9, 2015 14:40:05 GMT
That's interesting for sure. So I can do testing on pc at 30 fps and get the results that I could've gotten if I did it on consoles? That would open up a lot of possibilities. Yep. There's actually nothing different with the games in terms of physical properties of the game world or cars. I'm almost certain that the reason times are quicker on PC is because there are more frames to play with, so a dropped frame on PC costs you 1/60th of a second whereas on console it costs 1/30th. Given there are always going to be dropped frames the smaller impact of them on PC allows lap times to be quicker. The super kerb boosting on PC is probably related to this in some way, like being at fractionally higher revs in every 1/30th of a second interval between the frames that would normally be on console. So simply put: Double fps = double the boost because you spend double the frames on that particular boost. It's more a case of at each frame interval you get a bit extra on PC. Say a boost takes you from 4000 to 5000 revs in 1 second. At 30fps you're gaining 33.33 revs per frame whereas on PC you're gaining 16.67 revs per frame. At frame 0 both platforms are at 4000 revs. At frame 1 for PC the car is at 4016.67 whereas on console it hasn't reached frame 1 yet, so is still at 4000. At frame 2 for PC you're on frame 1 for console and both are at 4033.33 revs. But then again PC gets a small time at 4050 revs whereas console remains at 4033.33 until the next interval. The only thing I can say is that PC times are quicker than console if running at 60fps, even when not abusing kerbs, and lap times plus straight line performance is identical on console to PC when PC is at 30fps (which is how I was able to do the extra testing). More testing does need to be done to work out why there are differences though. I think it's actually simple now I think about it. When you have lower FPS, the car will take longer to react to input, but more importantly, it takes longer to get from A to B. When you are on a console, and it drops from 30 to 20-25 FPS you car sort of freezes a bit, can't describe it properly, but it jitters in that drop, so it sort of stops for milliseconds from moving due to a drop losing a bit of time. Everyone can notice this when they get a drop, the car freezes a bit, or just sort of jitters. Well what if it isn't caused by a change or drop in FPS, but just that the FPS is low. Maybe that when driving at 30FPS there is some jitter for the car, the car actually doesn't continue moving for such a short time, it's pretty much un-noticeable to the eye, but there is extremely small moments where the car doesn't move, in between each frame. so for every second, at 30FPS, the car is moving 30 times in that one second definitively, with the gaps between each frame could mean the car doesn't move or slows down a bit. And on PC at 60FPS, the car moves 60 definitive times per second, so there is more processes of movement in that 1 second. This doesn't mean it's twice as fast, but maybe between each frame there's a lagging behind moment where your car is either stopping for a fraction of a time or isn't moving at the full potential. Maybe a bit like how FO4 has the game engine speed tied to FPS, similar to that but far less noticeable. Could be wrong, could just be me being an idiot It's basically a case that when a frame drop occurs the car stays in the same position on your screen. So if you drop a single frame on console you're 1/30th of a second behind where you would've been. Had no frames been dropped your lap time would be 0.033 seconds quicker. You only need to drop 3 frames over the course of a lap to lose a tenth of a second. On PC you only lose 0.016 seconds when this happens. In addition if your PC runs the game well you might not experience drops at all, or less than console. And again even if you do the affect on lap time won't be as great. Frame drops will happen at certain points on PC and console (which is why I think records are more luck when you get to a certain level) - it's just that on PC you can run closer to the maximum lap time theoretically possible because they happen less frequently or don't affect you as much. EDIT: This is also why back on old gen sometimes you'd get the ultimate tryhards dropping down to 480p quality to set lap records (less frame drops). I imagine the way to be quickest for sure on PC is to turn down all the graphics settings and make sure you're experiencing 60fps for the maximum amount of time as possible. But I'd prefer to have it look good personally XD
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Post by Broughy1322 on Dec 9, 2015 14:40:30 GMT
I smell a fact finding video.
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double_s92
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Post by double_s92 on Dec 9, 2015 14:41:44 GMT
I smell a fact finding video. Fukt finding**
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Post by Grumples_Plox (grimreaper977) on Dec 9, 2015 14:51:54 GMT
i think this also explains why people who have low frames (or unstable ones with lots of micro freezes) jump back when driving online.
A more in depth explanation is you are driving side by side with someone you are at 60fps, they are at 30-40fps. then suddenly they drop down to 20fps for about a second or two, and on your screen they teleport back 10m and on their screen you jump forward 10-15m.
EDIT: also what about G-Sync/Freesync monitors with higher refresh rates (144hz) would this also affect how the cars drive. or maybe the physics engine is set to run at a max 60hz refresh rate.
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bladecruiser
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Post by bladecruiser on Dec 9, 2015 15:03:33 GMT
EDIT: This is also why back on old gen sometimes you'd get the ultimate tryhards dropping down to 480p quality to set lap records (less frame drops). I imagine the way to be quickest for sure on PC is to turn down all the graphics settings and make sure you're experiencing 60fps for the maximum amount of time as possible. But I'd prefer to have it look good personally XD This last bit has some truth to it on PC, as before Nvidia finally got off their asses and fixed the driver issues with the game, I couldn't run it at anything higher than about 20 fps unless I went in and turned -every- setting down, even ones that were deep within the config files that had no ingame toggle. I managed to actually turn the game into something that looked like it was from GTA3 era, flat textures and no shadows anywhere and absolutely no particles. But I ran at a solid 80 fps and could participate in races without it being a laggy piece of trash.
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Post by Oh_Darn on Dec 9, 2015 15:38:33 GMT
It's more a case of at each frame interval you get a bit extra on PC. Say a boost takes you from 4000 to 5000 revs in 1 second. At 30fps you're gaining 33.33 revs per frame whereas on PC you're gaining 16.67 revs per frame. At frame 0 both platforms are at 4000 revs. At frame 1 for PC the car is at 4016.67 whereas on console it hasn't reached frame 1 yet, so is still at 4000. At frame 2 for PC you're on frame 1 for console and both are at 4033.33 revs. But then again PC gets a small time at 4050 revs whereas console remains at 4033.33 until the next interval. Theoretically it should work the other way around when you're running 120 fps. So at frame 0 its again 4000 revs, frame 1 should be 4008.3 revs, and so on. Framedrops would have even less of an effect, so laptimes should be faster at 120 fps. Inbefore hotlappers go to GTA 3 graphics for world records
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Post by Grumples_Plox (grimreaper977) on Dec 9, 2015 15:42:01 GMT
It's more a case of at each frame interval you get a bit extra on PC. Say a boost takes you from 4000 to 5000 revs in 1 second. At 30fps you're gaining 33.33 revs per frame whereas on PC you're gaining 16.67 revs per frame. At frame 0 both platforms are at 4000 revs. At frame 1 for PC the car is at 4016.67 whereas on console it hasn't reached frame 1 yet, so is still at 4000. At frame 2 for PC you're on frame 1 for console and both are at 4033.33 revs. But then again PC gets a small time at 4050 revs whereas console remains at 4033.33 until the next interval. Theoretically it should work the other way around when you're running 120 fps. So at frame 0 its again 4000 revs, frame 1 should be 4008.3 revs, and so on. Framedrops would have even less of an effect, so laptimes should be faster at 120 fps. Inbefore hotlappers go to GTA 3 graphics for world records edited that in my post earlier today, with the theory what fps does it stop (a hard limit, maybe 60fps/hz for the physics engine) or is it just solely reliant on the fps (G-Sync/Freesync monitors would be Doom levels of speed XD)
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Post by jeffreyb1990 on Dec 9, 2015 15:42:20 GMT
My pace increased a lot after I switched from my old desktop, which would run on 30fps, to my current laptop, which runs at 60fps. And this would explain why on my old desktop I lost time on almost everyone on the straights.
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Post by Oh_Darn on Dec 9, 2015 15:47:22 GMT
edited that in my post earlier today, with the theory what fps does it stop (a hard limit, maybe 60fps/hz for the physics engine) or is it just solely reliant on the fps (G-Sync/Freesync monitors would be Doom levels of speed XD) Didnt see that Interesting to investigate though. Could be done by going to as blade called it gta 3 settings and cap to 120 fps, then keep those settings but only change the vsync to 60 and 30 fps accordingly.
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method0ne
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Post by method0ne on Dec 9, 2015 15:59:49 GMT
My pace increased a lot after I switched from my old desktop, which would run on 30fps, to my current laptop, which runs at 60fps. And this would explain why on my old desktop I lost time on almost everyone on the straights. This goes a certain way to explain why sometimes, even in identical cars, one seems to be faster than the other even when on a long straight or when taking the exact same lines through certain sections, if the faster person has fewer frame-drops or just plain more FPS then they're getting faster acceleration because of it. Would be interesting to see a test done with a single car on Broughmeisters test track at locked 30, locked 60, locked 120/144 (and/or unlocked fps if it would be higher than 144) with the game set to the lowest graphics settings available to eliminate as many stutters as possible. Perhaps even a run on the top speed track, the top speed wont change but the time should be faster due to acceleration if what we're hypothesizing is correct.
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DeadKelly
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Post by DeadKelly on Dec 9, 2015 16:12:03 GMT
I'm almost certain that the reason times are quicker on PC is because there are more frames to play with, so a dropped frame on PC costs you 1/60th of a second whereas on console it costs 1/30th. Given there are always going to be dropped frames the smaller impact of them on PC allows lap times to be quicker. The super kerb boosting on PC is probably related to this in some way, like being at fractionally higher revs in every 1/30th of a second interval between the frames that would normally be on console. I'm not protesting your theory, but is it really likely that the physics engine runs at the same frequency as the graphics engine? That sounds vyer strange to me. That would mean that if you were to drop a lot of frames at once, you could risk any number of strange physics behaviours. It seems more logical to let the physics engine run at a constant speed in parallell with the graphics engine, and then just let the graphics engine run as quickly as it can. But this is just a huge assumption on my part. I'm a developer, but not a game developer.
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Post by Blade died for our sins on Dec 9, 2015 17:38:50 GMT
i think this also explains why people who have low frames (or unstable ones with lots of micro freezes) jump back when driving online. A more in depth explanation is you are driving side by side with someone you are at 60fps, they are at 30-40fps. then suddenly they drop down to 20fps for about a second or two, and on your screen they teleport back 10m and on their screen you jump forward 10-15m. That's not frame drops that cause that, its microstuttering. I speak as a massive victim of it for about a month after IGG pt1 or 2 (I don't remember which) released
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Hertz
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Post by Hertz on Dec 9, 2015 22:11:00 GMT
I'm almost certain that the reason times are quicker on PC is because there are more frames to play with, so a dropped frame on PC costs you 1/60th of a second whereas on console it costs 1/30th. Given there are always going to be dropped frames the smaller impact of them on PC allows lap times to be quicker. The super kerb boosting on PC is probably related to this in some way, like being at fractionally higher revs in every 1/30th of a second interval between the frames that would normally be on console. Very interesting if true. People did tell me they were going lot faster with at 144fps. Someone with an expensive monitor should test this.
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