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Post by Blade died for our sins on Mar 21, 2016 20:58:20 GMT
Really good explenation CHILLI, especially with the wheels. Altho I wonder did you test all of them? I sort of expected to see some kind of comment on the Fujiwara tuner tires. from personal experience they handle unlike anything else ive tried. imo: they are more slidey than other tuners, but they do not apear to loose grip as fast as other tires, they have almost full grip up to almost 30 degrees of oversteer (or whatever value is way higher than normal. and most of all they will almost never snap. they are in general easier to control, but actually slower than other wheeltypes because they slide more easily and the brake effect that naturally comes when going sideways is working more than normal. because you have more grip despite going slightly sideways. effects are most noticable on the feltzer - out of the cars ive tried - so it may have something to do with the tyres can clip flag. I am avare that this might be total bullsh*t and Im placeboing like a retard because fujiwara is an easteregg reference to an anime about drifting cars (initialD). also i found the two stats responsible for "faction flipping fun". fSusCompDamp and fSusUpperLimit values are so low it bottoms out going over curbs (making the suspention completly stiff for a split second). sorry for potentially crappy english, I dont have autocorrect active atm. I'm pretty sure it's more to do with the car having... not the best hitbox   |
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Post by CHILLI on Mar 21, 2016 22:23:33 GMT
Blade died for our sins fuksias all of the lowriders have the model flag DONT_FORCE_GRND_CLEARANCE activated, meaning that the bottom of the collision mesh wont get lifted up as you start speeding up. So the game treats the car as if it's always standing still in terms of collision detection treatment. All lowriders bounce off of crap by design, not a bug or anything like that. And if it was related to suspension the chassis wouldnt take any damage, but I have seen the lowriders lose bumpers and such very often from hitting sidewalks and other obstacles. EDIT: Also Fuksias I'll take a look at those wheels. I never use them myself.
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fuksias
Member
Posts: 42 
Registered on: October 2015
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Post by fuksias on Mar 22, 2016 1:31:46 GMT
I once tested all the tuner, sports, high end, offroad, muscle and suv rims in the game to find something that siuted my driving style for the dominator. note that the reason the dominator handles like a dominator and not like a dukes is the rollbars, they are set way too stiff at the rear compared to the front.
anyway i tested all these and the ones you have mentioned like the carbon highends, the suv rims and the three tuners you mentioned certainly stood out, but there was a lot of other wheels that appeared to have special effects. some improved harpin handling, others improved chicane handling, and there was a few that was noticeably better at highspeed cornering.
I only truly tested the ones i marked as good for the dominator, and this was a long time ago so i dont recall many spesific details, other than concluding the muscle dukes rims worked best for my driving style. But point is if you want to know the truth about rims you cant go by rim class like you have done up until now. every 4-5 rim I tested had some seemingly random noticeable impact on handling .
if anyone really want to test this i would recomend trying once for a car with shitty suspention and one with good suspention.
also this costs a shit load of money, i wouldnt be able to try again and write down effects. The only reason i was able to in the first place was I a modder that spawned a shower of moneybags that was fixed to my characters head for a solid 10 minutes
and as always, there is a chance this is bullsh*t
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fuksias
Member
Posts: 42
Registered on: October 2015
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Post by fuksias on Mar 29, 2016 11:32:41 GMT
I just tested the countersteer against cosmo rims (both tuners)
In terms of grip balance i would say it goes more to the rear like fujiwara and dished eight, but there is a major difference. its extremly hard to spin it out, because when you loose grip, it continues in the exact same direction regardless of input. (i see now how this works with increased roll-bar force (-_-)
In short: traction goes more to the rear, but it behaves opposite of fujiwara when sliding because of increased roll-bar force, braking ability may suffer. using cosmo as neutral at all aspects.
Tested on Massacro and mamba.
So far fujiwara rims are the only tuners i cant make the same lap times as i can with other rims. (feltzer)
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Post by JS_90 on Apr 5, 2016 17:07:04 GMT
I might have missed you mentioning this somewhere else but do you know if Benny's wheels are identical in characteristics to normal lowrider wheels? Thanks! CHILLI |
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Post by CHILLI on Apr 5, 2016 17:35:53 GMT
I might have missed you mentioning this somewhere else but do you know if Benny's wheels are identical in characteristics to normal lowrider wheels? Thanks! CHILLI No I have not cared to test them because they are limited to a small group of cars, an even smaller group of those being somewhat competitive. If they are different from one of the original types you'd need to cheat/mod the game to make use of them so... As it stands right now I dont see testing them would benefit anyone (yet?). |
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Post by JS_90 on Apr 5, 2016 17:48:37 GMT
I might have missed you mentioning this somewhere else but do you know if Benny's wheels are identical in characteristics to normal lowrider wheels? Thanks! CHILLI No I have not cared to test them because they are limited to a small group of cars, an even smaller group of those being somewhat competitive. If they are different from one of the original types you'd need to cheat/mod the game to make use of them so... As it stands right now I dont see testing them would benefit anyone (yet?). Agreed that most of the cars that can use them are well off the pace, but since the upcoming Sabre Turbo Custom is likely going to be at the top of the class according to the PC guys that have tried it out, I was just wondering if it would be worth getting Benny's wheels for it. |
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Post by jt33396 on Apr 5, 2016 17:58:10 GMT
Hey CHILLI so, if I put a park bench (the really big spoiler) on a car, which ive been told causes more understeer, and I use one of the two tuner rims that add more grip to the front, would it counter the effect? Probably not evenly because of different values, but generally it should? |
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Post by CHILLI on Apr 5, 2016 20:48:29 GMT
Hey CHILLI so, if I put a park bench (the really big spoiler) on a car, which ive been told causes more understeer, and I use one of the two tuner rims that add more grip to the front, would it counter the effect? Probably not evenly because of different values, but generally it should? When talking about car dynamics in its simplest form understeer and oversteer can fall into 2 groups with 2 sub-groups each. One group is for front-heavy conditions and the other is for rear-heavy conditions. Front-heavy
- Within traction limits the car may have oversteery tendencies - Above traction limits the car may have understeery tendencies Rear-heavy
- Within traction limits the car may have understeery tendencies - Above traction limits the car may have oversteery tendencies To quote Clarkson from Top Gear "Driving a Porsche is like throwing a sledgehammer with the handle first". He's referring to how Porsches have the engine in the back, causing nasty understeer until the car suddenly snap and spins around. If we imagine this for your setup with the big spoiler the oversteer might become quite annoying if you have more grip at the front (or less at the back, depending on how you see it). The car will be nicely controlled within the traction limits, but beyond the limits the car may start to experience excessive oversteer. But dont go and change the traction balance towards the rear just yet. Now we have to remember that if the car starts to oversteer you want to have a way to catch it and straighten out again. If the front has less traction it has less say in where the car is going, potentially making oversteer far worse than with a neutral traction balance. So what would I recommend? Well... Everyone's driving style is slightly different so how severe the problems are can vary a lot from driver to driver. I cant say what will work best because of factors like the one I just mentioned, so you're left to find the best balance by experimenting on your own. |
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Post by jt33396 on Apr 5, 2016 21:38:26 GMT
Hey CHILLI so, if I put a park bench (the really big spoiler) on a car, which ive been told causes more understeer, and I use one of the two tuner rims that add more grip to the front, would it counter the effect? Probably not evenly because of different values, but generally it should? When talking about car dynamics in its simplest form understeer and oversteer can fall into 2 groups with 2 sub-groups each. One group is for front-heavy conditions and the other is for rear-heavy conditions. Front-heavy
- Within traction limits the car may have oversteery tendencies - Above traction limits the car may have understeery tendencies Rear-heavy
- Within traction limits the car may have understeery tendencies - Above traction limits the car may have oversteery tendencies To quote Clarkson from Top Gear "Driving a Porsche is like throwing a sledgehammer with the handle first". He's referring to how Porsches have the engine in the back, causing nasty understeer until the car suddenly snap and spins around. If we imagine this for your setup with the big spoiler the oversteer might become quite annoying if you have more grip at the front (or less at the back, depending on how you see it). The car will be nicely controlled within the traction limits, but beyond the limits the car may start to experience excessive oversteer. But dont go and change the traction balance towards the rear just yet. Now we have to remember that if the car starts to oversteer you want to have a way to catch it and straighten out again. If the front has less traction it has less say in where the car is going, potentially making oversteer far worse than with a neutral traction balance. So what would I recommend? Well... Everyone's driving style is slightly different so how severe the problems are can vary a lot from driver to driver. I cant say what will work best because of factors like the one I just mentioned, so you're left to find the best balance by experimenting on your own. I see what you mean. I was driving a Regular Jester though, which is AWD. I used some random set of rims from sports and a GT wing, and raced around Opal's track Tunnel Run. I was losing the tail a lot. I'm gonna test it with the park bench and tires EDIT: yeah definitely skiddier |
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fuksias
Member
Posts: 42
Registered on: October 2015
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Post by fuksias on Apr 7, 2016 15:44:45 GMT
since im apparently not welcome in the slack chat, ill just post the newest theories here. front and rear bumpers: we know these have effects based testing (massacro racecar is the most noticeable i can think of, also noticeable on the elegy) the effects are specific to either front or rear, individually. front bumpers affect front wheels handling, rear bumpers -> rear wheels handling this leaves us with a setup based on two individual parameters, one for front and one for rear (not a bias). in conclusion: i think bumper upgrades lower roll center height front/rear, in relation to CoM height.  based on the sketch reaching max travle on the suspension may take more time based on how far roll center height is from CoM height. this is my explanation on how custom bumpers makes cars less agile and more stable. R C H = roll center height feel free to call me out if you think this is bullshit, spot on, or i did a minor mistake, and include why. |
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Post by CHILLI on Apr 7, 2016 17:04:36 GMT
since im apparently not welcome in the slack chat, ill just post the newest theories here. front and rear bumpers: we know these have effects based testing (massacro racecar is the most noticeable i can think of, also noticeable on the elegy) the effects are specific to either front or rear, individually. front bumpers affect front wheels handling, rear bumpers -> rear wheels handling this leaves us with a setup based on two individual parameters, one for front and one for rear (not a bias). in conclusion: i think bumper upgrades lower roll center height front/rear, in relation to CoM height. based on the sketch reaching max travle on the suspension may take more time based on how far roll center height is from CoM height. this is my explanation on how custom bumpers makes cars less agile and more stable. R C H = roll center height feel free to call me out if you think this is bullshit, spot on, or i did a minor mistake, and include why. I'm going to be talking about this in depth in the near future, but I'll go over why this is wrong.  This is a picture taken directly from my own car physics project, some of you on here may have seen this in the past. All the colored lines indicate different things, so I'll explain what those are first. Green lines are colliders, these will be used to detect if the car body is touching the world. The vertical green lines are suspension forces, the length represents how much force.
Cyan lines, including the faint ones, respresent wheel direction & a cross for peak slip angle.
White lines are the resulting forces, though their placement isnt entirely accurate but close enough for now.
Blue vertical line is the CoM, the bottom of the line is its location. It's just extended upwards to make it easier to spot.
The magenta lines are to solve a sliding-down-a-slope-forever problem, so we can ignore those.
We also need to know exactly what a roll centre is, so I'll slap in an illustration for that while I'm at it.
We're interested in the intersection of the green lines. When both wheels have applied their respective forces we can approximate a shared location for where if you applied the equivalent total force you'd get the same movements. But because the game doesnt take the suspension geometry into account they have set the roll centre height themselves, which can be found in the handling data in the suspension section.
Alright, so now to where your hypothesis is wrong. Lateral forces are applied below the CoM and in the direction of desired travel, being towards the inside of the turning circle most of the time. What we can extract from this is that the lower the RC is the more body roll we get. But we have to keep in mind that at this point we're not accounting for other forces like downforce.
But remember this: the further away from the CoM a force is applied the more the body wants to rotate and vice versa. If all forces were applied at the CoM the car would never rotate.
With this knowledge in mind we can quite safely assume that the reason for example skirts decrease body roll at high speed is because the vertical downwards force (approximation of downforce in this case) is applied near the bottom of the car, resulting in a force that cancels out the body roll caused by turning because it's forcing the suspension to compress. The side with the most compression will move the least because the suspension forces are already fighting back, so the side with the most lift is the one to give in and lower towards the ground.
If this is what your brain feels like after reading, that's a natural response. This can be a lot of information to take in in such a short burst. If you want to learn more about this section of car dynamics then look up "car dynamics roll centre", maybe someone else out there has another explanation that's easier to understand.
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Post by jt33396 on Apr 7, 2016 17:24:10 GMT
Why is Chilli so smart :derp:
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Post by Benimi on Apr 13, 2016 11:43:26 GMT
I was wondering, if bumps make you go faster, how the wheel, which soaks bumps better, is better for racing? I mean if High-ends make the bumps more "bumpy", it sould give you more boost, or my thread is going to the wrong way?
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Post by CHILLI on Apr 13, 2016 21:23:00 GMT
I was wondering, if bumps make you go faster, how the wheel, which soaks bumps better, is better for racing? I mean if High-ends make the bumps more "bumpy", it sould give you more boost, or my thread is going to the wrong way? I'll have to come back to this kind of question at a later point. Because I need to test a few other things before being able to nail down exactly where these boosts come from. However what I have been able to conclude is that it's not the compressing wheel that gives the boost, that much I know. |
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