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Post by Broughy1322 on Dec 4, 2014 18:08:07 GMT
So recently there have been a number of discussions/arguments regarding how we go racing in GTA (and by we I mean everyone who races somewhat competitively). This has to do with wheel types and kerb boosting.
Sweat Buckets have recently implemented rules regarding these factors and I was asked by Shaggy if I would be willing to see if we could all "get on the same page" about this. I'm creating this thread to allow for discussion on it in one single place, away from other threads, and to finally make a decision on how we move forward. By the end of this discussion we'll have a policy for NoDo and that will be the end of it. The length of this discussion will be determined by how civil this is. As soon as it starts descending into any kind of petty arguments or going off-topic I'll simply close the thread and make a decision based on what I've seen. If the discussion continues in a mature manner then it can go on for a while until a consensus is reached.
The main aspects of the discussion are: - should wheel types be restricted to what is appropriate for that car (high end for supers, sports for sports, etc - basically banning off-road wheels) - should racers not use kerbs to gain a boost, sticking to the road at all times.
These aspects apply to regular racing in game and would serve as a guideline for events, although each event organiser, regardless of the outcome of this thread, would still be able to make rules for his event as he sees fit.
I have my own personal thoughts on this which I'll post below merely because I want to keep this first post separate from what will be my own opinion. I think Shaggy will pop in here too to give his own opinion, but I won't have much time to get in a lengthy back and forth discussion myself which is why I'll be posting all my thoughts in one large essay below. This thread will serve as a discussion which leads the decision for how we go on this. This will be up to what you guys as a community want for NoDo.
So please keep it respectful.
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Post by Broughy1322 on Dec 4, 2014 18:08:57 GMT
So I guess now I'll throw in my own personal thoughts on all of this as it's something I haven't done since this whole argument came about. The main point of it is that getting rid of off-road tyres and keeping off kerbs is better for racing. It creates a better environment for high level battles. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that, but is it better for the racing community as a whole?
First of all I'd say that having some variety in racing communities isn't necessarily a bad thing. We don't all have to be doing the same thing as long as we're racing. For a long time Sweat Buckets (SB) were only non-contact racers and we made a crew battle work with that. Other racing crews also have different philosophies on various aspects of GTA racing and we've been able to have battles there too. Whilst it would be nice for everyone who races competitively to all agree on the same rules I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that people can choose which style suits them best. If someone prefers the more restricted rules in place in SB they can join there. As long as they're racing somewhere I'm happy.
My second point would be - where does this end? We've never had a ban on anything when it comes to GTA racing. A lot of us naturally moved away from the Elegy since there are other cars that can compete, but we don't ban people from using it in races. SB did ban the Elegy. But why not the Schafter, the Zentorno, the Huntley? They're all more dominant in their class. But then it moves on to the next thing. Elegy is banned but then it becomes about Massacro or Feltzer. They have the same advantage over the other sports cars that the Elegy had over them. Do we then ban Feltzer and Massacro until we reach a point where there's some balance? Will that ever be achieveable? Then do you do that for every class? How does one keep up with that? The point I'm making with this is that by banning things it sets a precedent. If someone doesn't like it we'll just ban it from being used, or look down upon people for using it at the very least. Yesterday it was the Elegy, today it's wheels and kerbs, what will it be tomorrow? Suspension? Spoilers? How about we all agree to remove spoilers because having less grip makes the racing better. Where do you draw the line?
The next aspect would be difficulty to police. And by this I don't mean just the obvious of having to look at peoples wheels during a race or not knowing what someone is doing with regards to hitting a kerb when nobody can see them. I also mean the difficulty in what to do when someone gets that accidental kerb boost coming out of a corner which presents an overtaking opportunity. To cover the first bit, what do we do when someone uses off-road wheels? Tell them to stop. What happens when they don't? Kick them? It seems to be the only way that can be policed and to me it just feels... harsh. Not the way we tend to do things here. Then there's the most obvious of not knowing what someone is doing when you can't see them. If it's a long race and someone gets out in front you have no idea what kind of kerbs he's hitting. And in the heat of battle any racer tries to push the boundaries of what's possible to get that win. It's simply impossible to know. But even if you get a community of people all doing the same thing and there are no questions about what others are doing, what happens in those moments where you exit a corner and just catch the outside kerb accidentally. It happens. You're following someone close and that boost gives you a run to get alongside for the next corner. What do you do? Back off? Most racers would take the position. But it causes on the one hand a conflict of interest, and on the other a chance for needless arguments to arise. Racers want to win, they want to overtake. As soon as they have to start worrying about the tiny kerb boost giving him an advantage it for me doesn't become true racing any more as they're not pushing to the max to get the result. Hitting a kerb accidentally isn't generally something that can be avoided and it hardly goes into the realm of causing strife to another driver through contact for example. It's very much a grey area, and I can envision many arguments cropping up from it. "You hit a kerb on the outside of that corner, that's the only reason you got past, you should let me back through!" - "But you clipped the kerb on the inside of the previous corner so it balances out" - "The kerb I hit didn't give anywhere near the amount of advantage that yours did" - etc, etc, etc. Are the arguments that spawn from this really necessary? If everything is open and everyone is pushing to the limit it eradicates any chance of arguments like this taking place. We have enough as it is with contact.
One quick point to interject with here would be fairness. Personally I don't feel using off-road tyres or kerb boosts is unfair. I think most people would love to see Rockstar actively remove the kerb boost and make all wheels the same, but as it stands now they're here and everyone has the opportunity to do it. In an open crew you can make your choice about what car/tyres/kerbs to use and all the power to you for going against the grain. As soon as something is banned then it stops people racing how they want. If someone enjoys using off-road wheels because it makes the driving experience on the bumpy section of LSGP more enjoyable then they can't do that if they're banned. At the fundamental level it stops people racing and enjoying the game in the way that they want to do so. If people find enjoyment from racing to the absolute maximum they can choose to do that with a Zentorno/Elegy/any other top car, off road wheels and every kerb boost possible. If they find enjoyment with racing an Infernus with high end wheels and sticking to the road they can do that too. Whilst I think having rules banning certain things is more possible with a close knit group of people I don't think it works as an overall idea for everyone to stick to. Racers want to push the limits of what is possible. Further, I feel our crew is more designed around racing events. Regular racing with crew members isn't meant to be altogether serious. I couldn't give a damn if I won a random race on PS4, I'm just in it for the experience of racing with fellow like minded people. Pre-organised events are where the true competition is and as mentioned the organiser is free to choose whatever rules he/she wishes for those.
My final point is probably the one I feel most strongly about - what may be best for racing may not always be best for the community. I'm of the opinion that banning certain cars, wheels, or styles of play creates a much greater chance of community split than keeping everything open. As soon as someone who is either unaware of the rules or simply doesn't enjoy racing with those rules in place goes against them they're lambasted for it. They either fall in line or get abused/get kicked/don't race. I don't think that's the way our community should be. To explain this, here's a story. I had my first night of regular racing last night for months on PS4. I only just remembered to take the turbo off my Zentorno and Massacro before I started hosting a lobby with fellow NoDos. Naturally I still had off-road wheels on both as that was allowed in the MCEC and that was the last time I raced. A little later I invited Shaggy and a few other SBs joined. I then watched the stream back of that one race and all it was was complaining about us using off-road tyres and being shunned for doing so. Even though strictly speaking this was a NoDo lobby and we have no such rules in place. Now I wasn't all that aware of the idea of using specific wheel types and not using kerb boosts, I was just racing as normal. But none of this is taken into account at the time when someone is seen using these things. All it then becomes about is how much of a bad person I am for going against some rules that I didn't even know were in place, in technically a lobby where those rules aren't in place. This is the kind of thing I don't want others subjected to. If we become a crew who starts banning certain things then we run the risk of alienating people. I could quite easily imagine some random person (rather than me in that race) not wanting to race any more after watching that stream back for fear of doing the wrong thing again. The moment we start banning things is the moment we start looking down upon others for not adhering, which then becomes the very moment we turn this community from one that is meant to be open to all into one that is very much closed. In that very same race there were complaints about Meh Ryan and the fact that he won the race in his Zentorno with off-road tyres, getting a lap time nearly 1 second quicker than Picano. But was that a fact? It turns out, when you looked at the screen after the race, he didn't even have off road tyres on! He had sports wheels. So that was a perfectly legitimate win and lap time (which was also something like 1.5 seconds quicker than me in the same car but with off-roads). But was the fact that he didn't actually have off road tyres noticed? Of course it wasn't. It's much easier to focus on the negatives than see what is actually happening, and that's exactly the sort of thing that this breeds. The difference in lap time there was likely simply due to natural Zentorno/Turismo performance difference, which brings me back to my second point - is the next step to ban the Zentorno because people prefer the Turismo? How long and how many race losses to Zentornos will it take before that becomes a reality? I like Shaggy a lot and I like the SBs for what they do. I have massive respect for their racing abilities. I'm just using this as an example of the negative aspects that this sort of thing can breed. It becomes an understandably natural response if you feel you're being unfairly beaten. Even if it turns out you're not. It's just not something I like to see at all.
I don't deny that banning off-road tyres and kerb boosts may end up better for racing overall. I'm not completely sold but I trust Shaggy and SBs enough to know it's certainly a possibility, and I have no doubt that it will raise the skill gap as they claim. But my concern is whether it's right for the community. It sets a dangerous precedent, is difficult to police and causes unnecessary arguments, and risks turning what used to be an open community into a closed one.
Keeping everything open is for me the best way to remain. People can use whatever they want at any point in any race. If you use high end tyres and an Entity and feel you lost the race because of that, it's much easier to accept when it was your choice to go down that route in the first place. If you want to race with multiple crews you can have your cars set for their rules and still race with us, because we allow anything. Beyond serious events racing in this crew should be about enjoying racing and improving skills, and not turning people away for whatever reason. That's what we've always been about. If you guys think we should go down the route of banning off-roads and kerb boosts then I'll go along with it - I want you guys to have the community you want. I just wanted to put my own personal thoughts and concerns out there.
But you guys are the ones to make the decision. This isn't to tell SB or any other racing crew what rules they should adopt - it's for you to tell me the rules NoDo should adopt.
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Post by OpalescentFalcon on Dec 4, 2014 18:13:07 GMT
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Sugar_Free_Nos
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Post by Sugar_Free_Nos on Dec 4, 2014 18:20:46 GMT
I'm on the side of just not having any restrictions of this nature. Broughy summed it up pretty well in his post.
I think the freedom and lack of restrictions is what makes this crew what it is, and why it's accessible to all types of racers.
Now, if we host some kind of special event, rules like these would not be out of the question, but as for everyday racing, it will just be difficult to enforce and really unnecessary.
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spartan2291
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Post by spartan2291 on Dec 4, 2014 18:20:55 GMT
Nice write-up, Broughy.
I will certainly not stop using the bump boost or off-road tires and I don't think we should enforce an arbitrary standard on NoDo crew members.
I think these weird in-crew rules and regulations are, as you say, pretty difficult to enforce and are trying to make GTA something it is not. This is not Forza. This is not Gran Turismo. It's an arcadey, open-world race format that is a ton of fun.
I say let every racer exploit any and all advantages possible, like every race team in every series ever attempts to do.
If some people want to organize different series or championships with wheel and vehicle limitations, that's fine and people are free to join those as they see fit.
A lot of our members have put considerable time into discovering and exploiting racing advantages. Why are we punishing them for putting the time in and becoming masters of the game?
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spartan2291
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Post by spartan2291 on Dec 4, 2014 18:22:00 GMT
Oh, and:
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Post by smitveedub aka inFamous_Smithy on Dec 4, 2014 18:35:57 GMT
Well i dont think the whole kurb thing like you say can be policed properly and think it should be left as is.
And on to the wheel thing should be down to personal preference and left that way unless stated by a race orginiser that off roads not allowed but if that is the case that off roads aren't allowed everyone would just use say muscle wheels so what is the point really just let people use what wheels people want ive started moving away from muscle wheels which was what i used to wheels i just think look best on each car.
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Post by OpalescentFalcon on Dec 4, 2014 18:37:15 GMT
I agree with Broughy.
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Twilicane
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Post by Twilicane on Dec 4, 2014 18:37:28 GMT
I believe that it's better to stay away from adding more "restrictions" to our racing community. It defeats the purpose of having such a large crew since it'd be nearly impossible to enforce with over 500+ people. Also, this crew is very open right now(we are certainly getting a buttload of new members coming to the forums) and banning things would be a big turn-off for racers and especially newbies. I don't like how this is in the game and I really wish it was removed a long time ago or something, but right now it's just a part of racing. Not saying that we all must conform to it since racers are free to choose not to use these advantages, but I dont believe it would be smart to make this illegal in our crew.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 18:40:31 GMT
I don't want any restrictions on what we can/can't use in a random race.If you lose a race because you were using a Turismo or highend tires,it's your own fault.You made the choice to put your self at a disadvantage so don't throw a tantrum because you lost.That's both immature and pathetic.
I think it's best to not ban anything.This crew is open to anyone who's active and races clean and the whole point of this crew is that it's for fun,it's not a hardcore racing crew.So I think it's a horrible,horrible idea to ban certain/cars wheels etc.I don't like kerb boosting and offroad wheels make me queasy,but they're there and they make you faster so why not use them.I hope r* fixes/changes them but it's not fair to ban them because some people don't like them.
If someone wants to host an event with certain restrictions that's fine but for general racing I don't think anything should be banned.
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ossiru
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Post by ossiru on Dec 4, 2014 18:40:46 GMT
If you constantly feel the need to restrict elements inherent to a game's design, there comes a point where you should ask yourself why you choose to play the game at all.
I've come to terms with the fact that kerb boosts are a part of the game and I don't see a problem with them, especially when they're part of the "natural" racing line of a track. OR tyres make kerbs easier to deal with, so why not take advantage of that. I wish R* could have given the other tyres tangible strong point too while they were at it, but it's too late to cry over that.
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James_N9699
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Post by James_N9699 on Dec 4, 2014 18:46:49 GMT
I'd like it if the benefit of offroad tyres was removed from the game and it's not completely because it's easier to use, it's because they look plain wrong on any car that isn't offroad and a handful of other cars. However, I think banning wheel types would be wrong and as you said it would alienate people, because although I may say a certain wheel type looks ugly, some people may want to put on there white wall lowriders, but they'll get stick for having an advantage over certain wheel types that are favoured looks wise. However I do not think restricting wheel types would be a terrible idea for events, but for a generic GTA race session banning certain tyres would be a straight up terrible idea.
I'd like if there was no benefit from kerb boosting, but while it's in the game any form of ban whether an event or not would be a bad idea. It's hard to police and going over the kerb may be the best line to take a corner regardless of the boost, or an overtaking line. I think the only way to reasonable method to prevent kerb boosting is in the track choice itself; By blocking kerbs with barriers and such, with the prop limit increased i've seen some good tracks created that block kerbs.
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Selephia
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Post by Selephia on Dec 4, 2014 18:47:58 GMT
As for banning cars, of course do not ban any cars, use whatever you guys want more choice the better. As for tires get rid of off-road tires (for the hot lapping only) unless its on an actual off-road vehicle. I don't care what people use for normal races. use whatever you want doesn't bother me one bit because i use what i use.
As for the curb boosting id rather it not be in the game at all, but it is, so we have to deal with it. I agree that it can not be policed because it is a game mechanic that rockstar has coded into the game. Every bump in the road causes a speed boost. Also if that natural racing line around the corner clips the curb then fair enough, it cant be policed so just keep the curb boosting. idc and also im not arguing with anyone else over this issue especially when they don't understand what im trying to say or think that im not listening to them...
this is just my current opinion on this subject, if someone doesn't agree with me or has the opposite opinion i also couldn't care less because this is my opinion and that is your opinion. Just let broughy decide and everyone will be happy either way.
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fachuro
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Post by fachuro on Dec 4, 2014 18:49:45 GMT
You're thoughts pretty much sum up most of mine, after receiving the same treatment in a SB stream for simply saying that I disagree with their witch-hunt on cars and tyre-choices I've simply stopped racing with them. I'm not playing a game to listen to get publicly harassed by self-proclaimed authority-figures, but to enjoy myself. And I think this is the reason most people play games as well, and the same reason why most people will use the mute function when kids are screaming in their microphone in public lobbies. We're playing the game for enjoyment, if you try to ban something some people enjoy they will either stop enjoying themselves our stop playing with you. Either way it doesn't make for a great community, either for lack of enjoyment or for lack of people.
What I would personally like to bring up when we're on the subject of bans, is the ban of condescending attitudes and what goes beyond just friendly banter. I know there are already rules in regards to this, but I don't feel it's being enforced much as some people seem to get away with a lot of condescending behaviour. If anything is destructive for the racing community in this game I think it's that. Some people are better, some people are worse. The only difference between the two is usually experience, and while it's annoying being caught up in a crash with unskilled drivers it's not like we haven't all been there at one point causing that crash as an unskilled driver. As long as they take responsibility, and stop to give back the position there isn't really anything to complain about. It could just as well be a skilled driver being unattentive on a bad day.
As for kerb boosting, it's important that it's still maintained within regular racing rules in regards to movement between lines when driving in traffic. I would like to see it removed by R*, but it's unpolicable as it is and thus I see no reason why it shouldn't be used, as a lot people will whenever noone is looking regardless. But it's still moving off line, and it's important to remember then that jumping straight back on your original line if there is traffic around is out of the question, as it's considered weaving. If you choose the kerb boost, you gotta stick with the natural line for it and take debris into account. It really annoys me when someone jumps back and forth over the road to hit kerb boosts right infront of me, not because of the speedboost but simply because they're weaving. And that part is unacceptable imo. Whenever there's no traffic around or it's part of a line however, do whatever you like.
In regards to off-road tyres. The little advantage they have wouldn't cause an increased skill gap, what it seems that SB is referring to all the time is just that accidents are more likely to happen without them. That's not imo something that increases the quality of the racing, but rather decreases it. Improved traction enables better racecraft, and more intense battles as drivers are more in control of their car. Accidents are less prone to happen which makes the drivers skill a stronger factor. With anything that decreases driver control of the car a slightly less skilled driver is more likely to for example lose control and take out another more skilled driver, by accident. Car behaviour becomes more random, less predictable. This, imo, creates a worse environment for a driver with a higher level of racecraft to thrive in.
And of course, not to mention that if we ban off-road tyres, Elegys, Kerbs and all of this in the name of creating a more "realistic" racing environment. We should also ban people from not using their turbo, as getting a speed advantage from NOT having a turbo on your car seems more unnatural to me then all of those things put together.
I would prefer just banning bad behaviour and condescending attitudes though, and other then that let people use whatever they want on their cars.
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spartan2291
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Post by spartan2291 on Dec 4, 2014 18:52:45 GMT
The problem with banning Off-road wheels is that some cars are at a significant disadvantage without them.
I'm thinking of the Turismo R and Jester, mainly.
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